Hello,
I’m reaching out for help with my second DIY speaker build. My first was an easy fullrange build, Pensil 10p, with no crossovers involved. So, now that I’ve got the DIY bug I wish to build a better matched speaker for my 6 watt Finale SEP EL84 tube amp and my taste in music which is mostly rock. Don’t get me wrong, the Pensil 10p is a great speaker but not for complex music like rock, electronic, downtempo etc. No jazz, heavy metal or classical. My reference speakers are modified Klipsch Forte ll, which I like and will be keeping in rotation with my new speakers.
I would like to build 2 way horn standmount speakers using Faitalpro drivers and midbass. My requirements are in the follow order: 1) High efficiency 2) Small foot print 3) Bass extension.
My first and preferred option was a DIY kit but I have scoured the internet and haven’t found what I want, so, custom will be.
Options that I am looking at are:
1) A 61L bass reflex enclosure (11 inches X 15 inches X 23 inches internal dimensions)with a 10 inch midbass and 1 inch compression driver and horn.
Midbass is the Faitalpro 10PR300 or 10PR310, Compression Driver HF108 or HF10AK, horn LTH 102
2) A 36L bass reflex enclosure (9 inches X 13 inches X 19 inches internal dimensions)
Midbass is the Faitalpro 8PR320 or 8PR200, Compression Driver HF108 or HF10AK, horn STH 100.
I don’t have measuring software or the knowledge to determine what is the better midbass/driver/horn match, hence why I am turning to DIYaudioer’s. I can build the enclosures and put everything together but I lack the know how to pick the right match. As for the crossovers, I plan on finding someone locally.
Your help and suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
I would like to thank all those who will be contributing.
I’m reaching out for help with my second DIY speaker build. My first was an easy fullrange build, Pensil 10p, with no crossovers involved. So, now that I’ve got the DIY bug I wish to build a better matched speaker for my 6 watt Finale SEP EL84 tube amp and my taste in music which is mostly rock. Don’t get me wrong, the Pensil 10p is a great speaker but not for complex music like rock, electronic, downtempo etc. No jazz, heavy metal or classical. My reference speakers are modified Klipsch Forte ll, which I like and will be keeping in rotation with my new speakers.
I would like to build 2 way horn standmount speakers using Faitalpro drivers and midbass. My requirements are in the follow order: 1) High efficiency 2) Small foot print 3) Bass extension.
My first and preferred option was a DIY kit but I have scoured the internet and haven’t found what I want, so, custom will be.
Options that I am looking at are:
1) A 61L bass reflex enclosure (11 inches X 15 inches X 23 inches internal dimensions)with a 10 inch midbass and 1 inch compression driver and horn.
Midbass is the Faitalpro 10PR300 or 10PR310, Compression Driver HF108 or HF10AK, horn LTH 102
2) A 36L bass reflex enclosure (9 inches X 13 inches X 19 inches internal dimensions)
Midbass is the Faitalpro 8PR320 or 8PR200, Compression Driver HF108 or HF10AK, horn STH 100.
I don’t have measuring software or the knowledge to determine what is the better midbass/driver/horn match, hence why I am turning to DIYaudioer’s. I can build the enclosures and put everything together but I lack the know how to pick the right match. As for the crossovers, I plan on finding someone locally.
Your help and suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
I would like to thank all those who will be contributing.
Do you know this one:
Mezzo Calpamos - Sneak Preview - Hanna Paulsberg Concept - YouTube
12PR320
HF108R
LTH102
Mezzo Calpamos - Sneak Preview - Hanna Paulsberg Concept - YouTube
12PR320
HF108R
LTH102
I have been on Humble Homemade Hifi and scoured their site but haven't found what I am looking for.
The Mezzo Calpamos are very nice but too big for my listening area.
Like I said in my opening post, my requirements are 1)High efficiency 2)Small foot print 3) Bass extension.
I still haven't decided if I am going with the 8 inch or 10 inch midbass. I like the small foot print of the 8 but also like the efficiency and bass of the 10.There is always a compromise.
The Mezzo Calpamos are very nice but too big for my listening area.
Like I said in my opening post, my requirements are 1)High efficiency 2)Small foot print 3) Bass extension.
I still haven't decided if I am going with the 8 inch or 10 inch midbass. I like the small foot print of the 8 but also like the efficiency and bass of the 10.There is always a compromise.
Faitalpro woofers are good choice for bassreflex in general. The mentioned 10pr300 and 10pr310 have relative high Fs (about 60Hz) and low Qts and low xmax, so no major bass extension is expected compared to the 8-inch versions.
IMO the 10pr320 is much better if you want to use these boxes alone without subwoofer.
It have larger xmax and lower Fs than the 300 or 310, this leads to better bass extension, you can use these from 20l up to 50-60l, depends on how deep bass and overall sound pressure you want.
IMO the 10pr320 is much better if you want to use these boxes alone without subwoofer.
It have larger xmax and lower Fs than the 300 or 310, this leads to better bass extension, you can use these from 20l up to 50-60l, depends on how deep bass and overall sound pressure you want.
My rough calculations with internal dimension of 28cm X 38cm X 58cm gives me a 61 L enclosure.I might make it a bite smaller, about 54 L, if we conclude that I will get better results. I'm not looking for big boomy bass, but controlled and accurate.
The 10PR320 looks like a good option. Will the choice of a compression driver and horn depend on the midbass or are they independent of one another?I was looking at the HF108 and HF10AK. Both have had favourable reviews. I was leaning toward the HF108 because I have read that it is smooth.I do not want/like a bright sound.
Thanks YSDR and Lojzek,
The 10PR320 looks like a good option. Will the choice of a compression driver and horn depend on the midbass or are they independent of one another?I was looking at the HF108 and HF10AK. Both have had favourable reviews. I was leaning toward the HF108 because I have read that it is smooth.I do not want/like a bright sound.
Thanks YSDR and Lojzek,
Agreed on the 10pr320. The one big problem with using pro drivers is they tend to have stiff suspension.
You asked about which t/s parameters are important, since you want bass extension, Fs, or woofer resonant frequency. Below Fs the suspension is too tight and the cone won't move much.
The good news is even though the speakers are big, the required box compared to typical hifi units are much smaller.
So I would urge you to consider the 12inch , you will find the box required might be just the same for a hifi 8-10".
You can use this simple online software to model your speaker to see bass extensions.
Speakerbuilder Pro 2.0
If deep bass is what you are after, then choose port tuning frequency same as the Fs. Normally the recommended value is higher. You will get lower bass extensions while sacrificing your bass flatness....
Oon
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There are heaps of 2-way Faital builds, but they tend to be in bigger (wider) boxes that what you want.
e.g:
Floor Stand Main Speaker DIY - SEOS 12 CDX1-1745 Faital Pro 12PR300 - DIY Audio Projects - StereoNET
and:
Red Spade Audio: Econowave deluxe
---
Your requirements make it seem like a tall floor standing box would be better than a stand mount (to me a stand = dead space).
--> Efficiency + bass extension needs a big cabinet volume.
--> With a small footprint, a big volume means going tall.
Given that, I suggest you either:
(A) stay with a 2-way, and use a design that is optimised for getting the most from a single midbass driver in a tall, small footprint cabinet.
Luckily for you, there are many of these e.g. look up TQWP designs, or the folded Voigt pipe that came before them. These have a small but enthusiastic following, particularly among tube amplifier fans and full range speaker fans.
Examples:
http://www.quarter-wave.com/General/Fostex_FE-167E_BIB_Design.pdf
Terry Cain's BIB -why does it work and does anyone have those Fostex Craft Handbooks?
(B) Use a conventional tall cabinet, with +1 midbass driver.
Making a 2.5 way speaker is not much more complicated than a 2 way speaker.
More cone area = better bass efficiency (all else being equal), and with only 6 watts, higher bass efficiency is a good thing.
Another bonus is that the placement of the 2nd midbass driver is very flexible.
For example, you can put it on the back of the enclosure, if you prefer a less cluttered front panel.
You can also place the additional driver at ground level, to get a boost from the floor boundary. This gives you extra bass for "free".
Here is a DIY example of a 2.5 way build (one of many):
2.5 way Beyma TPL150 AMT with dual 8 inch SB Acoustics - DIY Audio Projects - StereoNET
The appropriate search will find many other examples.
These are all interesting suggestions but my requirements still remain 1)High Efficiency 2)Small foot print 3)Bass extension. The speakers I am using now are
Klipsch Forte ll with a 12inch woofer, so not interested in building another 12inch and I want a smaller foot print.The BIB is too tall and I don't want a fullrange single driver speaker since that was my first DIY build and not suitable for the type of music I listen.
I looked at the TQWP or TQWT design but still a big speaker and I found that must designs were for single driver, so.....a 2 way horn will be.
Can someone tell how I can determine the optimal internal volume and port length for the 10PR320? I tried playing around with online calculators but lost patience. Would there be a noticeable difference between a 60 and a 55 Litre box? Should I go bigger, smaller?
Klipsch Forte ll with a 12inch woofer, so not interested in building another 12inch and I want a smaller foot print.The BIB is too tall and I don't want a fullrange single driver speaker since that was my first DIY build and not suitable for the type of music I listen.
I looked at the TQWP or TQWT design but still a big speaker and I found that must designs were for single driver, so.....a 2 way horn will be.
Can someone tell how I can determine the optimal internal volume and port length for the 10PR320? I tried playing around with online calculators but lost patience. Would there be a noticeable difference between a 60 and a 55 Litre box? Should I go bigger, smaller?
55l vs 60l doesn't make much difference, these are theoretically oversized volumes for the 10PR320, but don't worry, with larger than "optimal" box, you can make an extended bass-shelf (EBS) response instead of classic flat 4th order roll-off, which can even be advantageus if you consider the room-gain.
Download winisd for example and play with it.
Download winisd for example and play with it.
"but my requirements still remain 1)High Efficiency 2)Small foot print 3)Bass extension"
Yep. And that's why I recommend going tall.
A tall floor stander has a lot more enclosure volume than a skinny stand mount, yet has the same footprint.
...or are you saying "footprint" when you actually mean something else?
"I looked at the TQWP or TQWT design but [...] I found that must designs were for single driver"
Yes, I know - this is exactly what I told you
...but that doesn't stop them being useful for 2-way builds.
These cabinets were developed to wring more bass extension out of moderately sized, highly efficient midbass drivers.
They will do this whether or not you stick a tweeter on top.
Yep. And that's why I recommend going tall.
A tall floor stander has a lot more enclosure volume than a skinny stand mount, yet has the same footprint.
...or are you saying "footprint" when you actually mean something else?
"I looked at the TQWP or TQWT design but [...] I found that must designs were for single driver"
Yes, I know - this is exactly what I told you
...but that doesn't stop them being useful for 2-way builds.
These cabinets were developed to wring more bass extension out of moderately sized, highly efficient midbass drivers.
They will do this whether or not you stick a tweeter on top.
If you read this thread you will realise that you cannot have all 3.... choose 2. It is a known trade off.
Trade-offs in loudspeaker design
I would like to caution you at this point that you will not get much more bass than a say 5" speaker using a hifi driver.
Pro drivers (even 10") are built for high efficiency and small footprint... but not bass...
Oon
hollowboy: Was I initially interested in the Troel Gravesen TQWT 2 way build.You are absolutely right, this is a very efficient speaker and recommended if using a tube amp.But, that is a very larger box.My listening space is 3 metres wide with an open back to a larger room and I sit 2 metres away from speakers. I looked for smaller efficient TQWT plans but did not find any. So, if I want efficiency in a smaller foot print, I will have to stick with horns.What inspired me was the Unison Research Max Mini.This standmount efficiency is 93db in a 45 litres box, frequency response is 40-20000Hz. Reviews are positive.
oon_the_kid:I understand that I can not get all 3 requirements.That is why I listed them in order of preference.The 10PR320 has a Fs of 48 Hz, so according to YSDR I should be fine bass wise.I am not looking for boomy bass.I want it to be present, controlled and not over powering.
I built a fullrange box, Pensil 10p, that most said it lacks bass but in my listening space I found it OK.
YSDR: Can you please explain how this is done...you can make an extended bass-shelf (EBS) response instead of classic flat 4th order roll-off,...Is this done through crossover design?
Thanks everyone.You guys are making my job alot easier.Much appreciated.
oon_the_kid:I understand that I can not get all 3 requirements.That is why I listed them in order of preference.The 10PR320 has a Fs of 48 Hz, so according to YSDR I should be fine bass wise.I am not looking for boomy bass.I want it to be present, controlled and not over powering.
I built a fullrange box, Pensil 10p, that most said it lacks bass but in my listening space I found it OK.
YSDR: Can you please explain how this is done...you can make an extended bass-shelf (EBS) response instead of classic flat 4th order roll-off,...Is this done through crossover design?
Thanks everyone.You guys are making my job alot easier.Much appreciated.
Does it have to be Faital, and why?
Here’s a cheaper alternative:
Eminence Beta 10cx pine build
Eminence Beta 10cx pine build
Here’s a cheaper alternative:
Eminence Beta 10cx pine build
Eminence Beta 10cx pine build
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EBS alignment is a broad concept, it requires a larger than "optimal" reflex box, so the bass roll-off begins earlier with a gentle slope, but extends more towards the low-end, the shape of the response depends on the box size and vent tuning.
So it's a box tuning and not a crossover thing.
Often, that earlier roll-off is a better match to the response of the room, especially with the usual close-to-wall placement.
Prosound driver manufacturers often recommends EBS-like box alignments, for example, check Eighteen Sound (yeah, these are the drivers in the Unison Research speakers) and their larger woofers, the recommended box is almost always larger than the theoretically optimal for maximal flat amplitude, so an EBS alignment.
So it's a box tuning and not a crossover thing.
Often, that earlier roll-off is a better match to the response of the room, especially with the usual close-to-wall placement.
Prosound driver manufacturers often recommends EBS-like box alignments, for example, check Eighteen Sound (yeah, these are the drivers in the Unison Research speakers) and their larger woofers, the recommended box is almost always larger than the theoretically optimal for maximal flat amplitude, so an EBS alignment.
I've been simming the 10pr320 and others that are similar in the past few days and a 27L cab looks most appropriate for me.
I have been wondering about the EBS alignment and why pro manufacturers specify it. Is the FR flattened out in EQ in a sort of reverse BSC? Sacrificing a few db in a high shelf attenuation around 200hz for lower extension seems fair.
I use dsp so might be interesting to use said shelf to tune to the room.
I have been wondering about the EBS alignment and why pro manufacturers specify it. Is the FR flattened out in EQ in a sort of reverse BSC? Sacrificing a few db in a high shelf attenuation around 200hz for lower extension seems fair.
I use dsp so might be interesting to use said shelf to tune to the room.
48Hz is not too bad. What you need to know is at the lowest frequency is actually done by the port.
Essentially what YSDR is saying in a normal bass reflex typically the tuning frequency is selected such that you have as low as -3db point as possible hence producing a flat response. You choose the tuning frequency by the length of the port and box size. In Faitalpro it would probably be around 70Hz for example. The bad news is that everything below 60Hz will drop like a rock.
You could alternatively choose something lower, say 48Hz. Then instead of -3db at 70Hz, you get -4 db instead. But the good news is you extend your frequency response to about 40Hz, even though it is -10 db by then. In the port tuning of 70Hz, it would be say -30db and no longer audible. So you are trading bass extension for bass flatness. To understand more, you would need to Simulate it out in the website i linked earlier.
Oon
Essentially what YSDR is saying in a normal bass reflex typically the tuning frequency is selected such that you have as low as -3db point as possible hence producing a flat response. You choose the tuning frequency by the length of the port and box size. In Faitalpro it would probably be around 70Hz for example. The bad news is that everything below 60Hz will drop like a rock.
You could alternatively choose something lower, say 48Hz. Then instead of -3db at 70Hz, you get -4 db instead. But the good news is you extend your frequency response to about 40Hz, even though it is -10 db by then. In the port tuning of 70Hz, it would be say -30db and no longer audible. So you are trading bass extension for bass flatness. To understand more, you would need to Simulate it out in the website i linked earlier.
Oon
So your goal is 40Hz from about 45 litres?
This is good to know.
So here's the thing: you already have a system using boxes that are about 45 litres, and with a roughly 40Hz cutoff.
Putting a bigger driver into roughly the same sized box will not give you more bass and efficiency.
By the time you get the crossover dialed in and the system reasonably flat to 40Hz, it will have about the same efficiency as your current system.
That's what we mean when we say "you can't have all three".
For a small system, the tweeter you use has no effect of final system efficiency.
The final efficiency, for a system that aims to get to 40Hz, is set by how efficient the midbass driver is at 40Hz. It can have a horn, planar or dome on top. Doesn't matter.
This is why I'm telling you that the only way to get more bass or efficiency from the same footprint is to go taller (to get a bigger cabinet volume in the same floor space), or to use more effective boundary loading (use two woofers, and place the 2nd one very near the floor).*
If you go from the Pensil to a similarly sized 2-way using a 10" + horn (assuming you get it right), you will not get better efficiency or bass response - but there would be other benefits, like a flatter frequency response.
--
Also: note that the specs you reference for the Unison Research Max Mini are advertising claims, and should be treated skeptically.
If you put the values for the 10PR320 into some calculators, you will see that those claims cannot be met.
HiFi Loudspeaker Design
HiFi Loudspeaker Design
This is usually true of advertised specs. Everybody lies.
* or you can "cheat", by adding a sub or subs. Adding subs means you can build a more efficient main speakers in 45 litres, because you can relax that requirement for them to get to 40Hz.
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