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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Working the crossover for better impedance
Working the crossover for better impedance
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Old 22nd March 2020, 12:27 PM   #1
Kustomize123 is offline Kustomize123
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Default Working the crossover for better impedance

This thread has been split from - What amp should I be looking at for 4 ohm?

****

Wow thankyou! Just the answer I was looking for!

My speakers share two 8ohm woofers in parallel.

Zaph|Audio - ZA5 Speaker Designs with ZA14W08 woofer and Vifa DQ25SC16-04 tweeter

I have the 5.3T.

The crossover is there too.

Would someone be able to guide me on how to go on about working the crossover for better impedance?

Last edited by AllenB; 25th March 2020 at 01:05 AM. Reason: Split message
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Old 22nd March 2020, 01:19 PM   #2
Douglas Blake is offline Douglas Blake  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kustomize123 View Post
Would someone be able to guide me on how to go on about working the crossover for better impedance?
I'm sure lots of us can ... but I think this should be moved to the Multi-Way speaker forum to continue.

To get us started, I've copied the crossover from the link you gave me and set up an XSim file for it. The XSim file does not have the exact driver specs, so I'm hoping you can fill this in for us.

The same will need to be done for each of your satellites as well.

The 5.3T appears to be a 2.5 way design where one of the woofers is reitired early (about 150 hz) which is interesting. Typical of this design the lowest impedance is in the deep bass region rising as the second woofer fades out but it also has a pretty deep dip just above the crossover point that may warrant some attention.

Hope this helps...
Attached Images
File Type: jpg ZA5.3t-crossover.jpg (52.0 KB, 328 views)
Attached Files
File Type: dxo ZA5T.dxo (9.2 KB, 4 views)
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Old 22nd March 2020, 01:37 PM   #3
denbret is offline denbret  Canada
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Hi, I would not touch the speakers. It is very sharp and the risk is when the sound decreases in quality. You must be equipped with a microphone for measurements and a good knowledge of the design. It is not the choice of amplification in class D, but your is quite broad, in the sense that you need a preamp with processor for the multichannel processing of a CM. Then you can choose an amplifier like those based on IRS2092, they are generally very powerful and designed for low impedances
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Old 22nd March 2020, 01:52 PM   #4
Kustomize123 is offline Kustomize123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Blake View Post
I'm sure lots of us can ... but I think this should be moved to the Multi-Way speaker forum to continue.

To get us started, I've copied the crossover from the link you gave me and set up an XSim file for it. The XSim file does not have the exact driver specs, so I'm hoping you can fill this in for us.

The same will need to be done for each of your satellites as well.

The 5.3T appears to be a 2.5 way design where one of the woofers is reitired early (about 150 hz) which is interesting. Typical of this design the lowest impedance is in the deep bass region rising as the second woofer fades out but it also has a pretty deep dip just above the crossover point that may warrant some attention.

Hope this helps...

EDIT: Sorry, I didn't notice you attached a file. I just installed xsim after trying to open your file, I don't know what you want me to fill in? I am sorry I am a total newbie at this!

Thankyou for your willingness to help!

All the driver specs are here!
http://www.zaphaudio.com/ZA14W08/ZA14W08-datasheet.pdf

If you could tell me what else you need, i'd take a look and get to you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by denbret View Post
Hi, I would not touch the speakers. It is very sharp and the risk is when the sound decreases in quality. You must be equipped with a microphone for measurements and a good knowledge of the design. It is not the choice of amplification in class D, but your is quite broad, in the sense that you need a preamp with processor for the multichannel processing of a CM. Then you can choose an amplifier like those based on IRS2092, they are generally very powerful and designed for low impedances
I do have a UMIK-1 and I use REW for measurements.

What amp can be used just for stereo use that would best my AVR?

Last edited by Kustomize123; 22nd March 2020 at 01:56 PM.
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Old 22nd March 2020, 02:50 PM   #5
denbret is offline denbret  Canada
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TPA3255 2x260W 2Ch Class D Audio Amplifier | eBay
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Old 22nd March 2020, 04:23 PM   #6
Douglas Blake is offline Douglas Blake  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kustomize123 View Post
EDIT:
If you could tell me what else you need, i'd take a look and get to you!
There are two file types that XSim uses to analyse drivers... *.ZMA and *.FRD. I do not personally know how to compose those files from the info on the website but others may...

Quote:
I do have a UMIK-1 and I use REW for measurements.

What amp can be used just for stereo use that would best my AVR?
That's easy ... The Crown XLS 1002 It's kind of a swiss army knife amplifier that has built in crossovers and can adapt to either pro or consumer levels very easily. The full details are on the Crown Audio website All you should need to do is plug this in to your front channel outputs and level match it with the rest of your system...

This would also take some of the load off the other channels, allowing Denon's power management to drive them more efficiently.

Last edited by Douglas Blake; 22nd March 2020 at 04:36 PM.
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Old 22nd March 2020, 04:41 PM   #7
Douglas Blake is offline Douglas Blake  Canada
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Originally Posted by denbret View Post
Hi, I would not touch the speakers.
I tend to agree ... It is a very technical area. But if the crossovers expose design deficiencies that are easily corrected, it is very unlikely sound quality would decrease and our friend's problem could be fixed with just a couple of parts replacements. Even if he goes to an outboard amplifier, he might still benefit from a crossover upgrade.
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Old 22nd March 2020, 10:41 PM   #8
denbret is offline denbret  Canada
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Ok I understand your point of view. But I don't think it's the best way to approach the problem. You have your opinion, I have mine. Looking forward to reading you. Thank you
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Old 23rd March 2020, 01:22 AM   #9
Douglas Blake is offline Douglas Blake  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by denbret View Post
Ok I understand your point of view. But I don't think it's the best way to approach the problem. You have your opinion, I have mine. Looking forward to reading you. Thank you
To explain ...

I've seen, time and again, where crossovers are becoming more and more complex and less and less efficient ... and generally for no good reason. They've become my first suspicion when I hear things like "low dips in impedance" and "poor frequency response".

It's pretty unlikely that Denon is going to put out a deficient or poorly designed product... the returns and replacements would just kill them.

On the other hand the guy producing DIY speaker kits from his garage is far more likely to have problems in his designs simply because he has no R&D budget to speak of....

I went crossovers first because in our friends question it struck me as the most likely spot for a problem to be hiding. Crossover modelling is free, so no harm having a peek at that before the money starts flowing.

If I'm wrong it wouldn't be the first time...
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Old 24th March 2020, 12:01 AM   #10
Douglas Blake is offline Douglas Blake  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kustomize123 View Post
EDIT: Sorry, I didn't notice you attached a file. I just installed xsim after trying to open your file, I don't know what you want me to fill in? I am sorry I am a total newbie at this!

Thankyou for your willingness to help!
I thought you might like to see what can be done with an alternative crossover design for your 2.5 way speakers.

Please note this is not a final design as I still can't locate the files for your specific drivers. This is an example using 3 8ohm "perfect" drivers that are the default in XSim ... please note the impedance curve never dips below 8 ohms.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Shunt2_5Way.JPG (334.8 KB, 240 views)
Attached Files
File Type: dxo Shunt2_5Way.dxo (6.3 KB, 3 views)

Last edited by Douglas Blake; 24th March 2020 at 12:08 AM.
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