The design of a waveguide isn't the problem which would add significantly to the value of the project. The problem is the cost of commercially printing a pair of waveguides for a project with a limited budget.
The Monacor guides are around the target price but they are spherical rather than elliptical, unlikely to be a good depth for a passive crossover, don't know about profile,... But they are very much the sort of thing that needs considering and documenting their pros and cons given the objectives for the speaker.
Interesting! Do you have any ideas why the setup with the Veravox didn't work out so well? The offset between the woofer and the Veravox seems a bit large on the photo -- do you think that could have been an issue?
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The BMF1 speaker custom-built by Tweek Geek has received high praise in public shows. The use of two-sealed, near-floor, side-side, counter-force, DSP-controlled woofers provides a BIG-BANG in a medium size cabinet. The Tweek Geek website has several construction pictures,
HIGH-watts to two 24Hz equalized 12" subwoofers allows a modest H46" W18" D17" total 6cuft cabinet that fits many homes.
$13 B-52 PHRN-1014 1" Horn 10" x 14" Bolt-On waveguide
Model: PHRN-1014|Part # 299-2303
$63 Peerless 1.75" DFM-2544R00-08 compression driver
$188 Eminence KappaLite 3012HO Midrange:
TWO $156 Dayton RSS315HF-4 12" woofer (two in series = 6.2 ohms)
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$576 for drivers
Attached feasibility XSim3d simulation and a few example construction pictures from the Tweek Geek website.
The Eminence Kappalite 3012HO was selected for the midwoofer based upon the $188 price, datasheet measurements and user feedback. Open discussion of under $200 alternatives midwoofers is invited.
lower cost: $130 Eminence Delta Pro 12A
high praise: $200 Faital 12PR310
popular: $125 Eminence Deltalite 2512
Attachments
from 6moon: "Tweek Geek BMF1 speakers (the flyer gave an estimated price of $20’000 the pair). Each speaker weighs 200 pounds and contains two side-mounted subwoofers separately powered by internally mounted Hypex 400wpc class D amps..." link HERE
That is very interesting design, although it is on expensive side but hey you get what you paid for, it caught my attention, is that the schematic you designed for it ?
That is very interesting design, although it is on expensive side but hey you get what you paid for, it caught my attention, is that the schematic you designed for it ?
Thanks for the support but at this stage the project requires people with experience to take an active interest in the group design. That doesn't appear to be happening and without it the project isn't going to proceed. If someone puts in some effort I will join in otherwise my involvement will be limited to a bit of chatting in this thread.
Andy: It seems you have a well-defined goal, budget and size restrictions. I do not reach up to the kneecaps to the more experienced people on this forum, but I am confident that I can do some fairly decent sims that will give good results after the sawdust has settled. I have an affinity towards 2 way designs (FR/wideband + bass), but a good 3 way can be very nice. I also much prefer active solutions rather than passive for crossovers. It should be possible to make a quite good 3 way including active xo and amps for 1000$ per channel if we just get the right parts for the job, much easier (and probably better in some ways) with a 2 way WAW (previously FAST) though.
Just saying, if you got direction and goal settled, the rest can be done with some teamwork.
Just saying, if you got direction and goal settled, the rest can be done with some teamwork.
I prefer someone of woofers alternatives to follows the rest of drivers sensitivity, so the loudspeakers can be used for low power SET users.
Not sure, I pursued the 2-way horn design instead so did not spend as much time on it. Crossover was around 300Hz if I remember correctly.
Hey Andy, it this point we also need "investors", people who are willing to start building and test it, but I don't think anybody would do that at least until the few next steps, until the design and drivers are finalized and simulations look promising, same goes with getting help from more experienced guys, I m sure when we build a solid base they will chip in
I do appreciate your contributions and support for this project.
1- Post #221 by Zvu - 3-Way standmount, 2x 8-10" Woofers on Sides, 5" Midrange, waveguide loaded tweeter.
2- Post #262 by Andersonix - OB5 - 2x Woofers in sealed box + WTW (MTM ?) open baffle, more info HERE.
3- Post#281 by Lojzek - Yamaha NS-5000
4- Post #294 by LineSource - 3-Way SB Acoustic Drivers 12"Woofer + 6.5"Midrange and 1" Dome Tweeter.
5- Post #296 by wesayso - 3 or 4-Way - Narrow bandwidth with DSP.
6- Post #303 by Andersonix - Alon Model I
7- Post #306 #403 by LineSource - 12" DSP Controlled woofer(s), 12" midrange, Peerless CD+Wave Guide.
8- Post #310 #335 by Pida - 3-Way 90-91db, 2x8" Woofers, 6-7"midrange and waveguide loaded tweeter.
9- Post #319 #356 by mbrennwa - Monkey Coffin 3-Way monitor ~92db, 10" Woofer, Cone Midrange, 1" Dome Tweeter.
10- Post #320 by Lojzek - Dynaudio Evidence Master, 92db, 4x 8" Woofer, 2x 6" Midrange, 2x 1" Tweeter.
11- Post #320 by Lojzek - Wharfedale Heritage Airedale - 90db, 15" Woofer, 8" Bass/Mid, 3" Midrange, 1" Tweeter, 1" Super Tweeter (subject to alterations in our favour).
12- Post#325 by Yoke - Kii THREE
13- Post#325 by Yoke - Kairos.
14- Post#328 by KaffiMann - 3-Way Scan Speak - 2x 10" Woofer, 5.5" Midrange and 1" Tweeter.
15- Post #336 by Aatto - 3-Way, Basszilla inspired - Deep Powerful bass, 90+db, 12" Woofer, 6" Midrange and 1" Tweeter, DSP+Passive XO.
16- Post #338 by Aatto - 3-Way, Basszilla inspired - Poorman version - Powerful bass, ~88db, 8-10" Woofer, 6" Midrange and 1" Tweeter, DSP+Passive XO.
17- Post #340 by Lojzek - Harbeth Monitor 40.2 - Classic 3-Way, 12" Woofer - 8" Midrange - 1" Dome Tweeter - 35-20KHz +/-3db - 86db.
18- Post #358 by 00940 - Silent Runner - More Info HERE (in German)
19- Post #346 #354 by andy19191 - 3-Way Tower, 2x8" Woofers, 4-5" Midrange, 1" Tweeter.
20- Post #368 by Draki - Tall narrow enclosure w woofer on the side - 10" Woofer, 5" Midrange and Metal Dome Tweeter, More info HERE
21- Post #369 by kapelli - 3-Way High end, ultimate mid and fast bass, -3db 30-35Hz.
2- Post #262 by Andersonix - OB5 - 2x Woofers in sealed box + WTW (MTM ?) open baffle, more info HERE.
3- Post#281 by Lojzek - Yamaha NS-5000
4- Post #294 by LineSource - 3-Way SB Acoustic Drivers 12"Woofer + 6.5"Midrange and 1" Dome Tweeter.
5- Post #296 by wesayso - 3 or 4-Way - Narrow bandwidth with DSP.
6- Post #303 by Andersonix - Alon Model I
7- Post #306 #403 by LineSource - 12" DSP Controlled woofer(s), 12" midrange, Peerless CD+Wave Guide.
8- Post #310 #335 by Pida - 3-Way 90-91db, 2x8" Woofers, 6-7"midrange and waveguide loaded tweeter.
9- Post #319 #356 by mbrennwa - Monkey Coffin 3-Way monitor ~92db, 10" Woofer, Cone Midrange, 1" Dome Tweeter.
10- Post #320 by Lojzek - Dynaudio Evidence Master, 92db, 4x 8" Woofer, 2x 6" Midrange, 2x 1" Tweeter.
11- Post #320 by Lojzek - Wharfedale Heritage Airedale - 90db, 15" Woofer, 8" Bass/Mid, 3" Midrange, 1" Tweeter, 1" Super Tweeter (subject to alterations in our favour).
12- Post#325 by Yoke - Kii THREE
13- Post#325 by Yoke - Kairos.
14- Post#328 by KaffiMann - 3-Way Scan Speak - 2x 10" Woofer, 5.5" Midrange and 1" Tweeter.
15- Post #336 by Aatto - 3-Way, Basszilla inspired - Deep Powerful bass, 90+db, 12" Woofer, 6" Midrange and 1" Tweeter, DSP+Passive XO.
16- Post #338 by Aatto - 3-Way, Basszilla inspired - Poorman version - Powerful bass, ~88db, 8-10" Woofer, 6" Midrange and 1" Tweeter, DSP+Passive XO.
17- Post #340 by Lojzek - Harbeth Monitor 40.2 - Classic 3-Way, 12" Woofer - 8" Midrange - 1" Dome Tweeter - 35-20KHz +/-3db - 86db.
18- Post #358 by 00940 - Silent Runner - More Info HERE (in German)
19- Post #346 #354 by andy19191 - 3-Way Tower, 2x8" Woofers, 4-5" Midrange, 1" Tweeter.
20- Post #368 by Draki - Tall narrow enclosure w woofer on the side - 10" Woofer, 5" Midrange and Metal Dome Tweeter, More info HERE
21- Post #369 by kapelli - 3-Way High end, ultimate mid and fast bass, -3db 30-35Hz.
I think we do have enough design suggestions, does not mean that more suggestions are not welcome tho
I guess our first target is the woofer, should have high sensitivity, go deep enough, not too large and not too expensive, it is a long list of demands !
we have a few options here,
Go sealed and DSP it to go lower in smaller sealed box (without damaging the motor), 2x 8in facing forward or on the sides.
Having 2 woofers can help with sensitivity but it will end up same price as a larger better sensitivity woofer (1x10" or 12"), but the catch with single driver is we may not be able to go that low with one 10 or 12" driver, specially sealed.
we also can go with a sub as the woofer, and use a larger midrange to cover lower freqs, this will help with smaller form factor build and good sounding high sensitivity midrange that size is easier and cheaper to find maybe, but a sub with high sensitivity ?
My point is, this is a endless discussion and we need to find a fine line.
so... thoughts ?
I guess our first target is the woofer, should have high sensitivity, go deep enough, not too large and not too expensive, it is a long list of demands !
we have a few options here,
Go sealed and DSP it to go lower in smaller sealed box (without damaging the motor), 2x 8in facing forward or on the sides.
Having 2 woofers can help with sensitivity but it will end up same price as a larger better sensitivity woofer (1x10" or 12"), but the catch with single driver is we may not be able to go that low with one 10 or 12" driver, specially sealed.
we also can go with a sub as the woofer, and use a larger midrange to cover lower freqs, this will help with smaller form factor build and good sounding high sensitivity midrange that size is easier and cheaper to find maybe, but a sub with high sensitivity ?
My point is, this is a endless discussion and we need to find a fine line.
so... thoughts ?
@Aatto, you can combine my proposal (No. 5) with number 12 from Yoke, as it basically amounts to the same thing with similar goals.
I have no desire to design another speaker at this point. I'm both proud and happy to say my own speaker project has been an inspiration to many other members across this forum. This, for me, confirmed I made the right choice to share as much as I did, both good and bad, along my journey.
So anyone interested in arrays, you know where to find me...
I have no desire to design another speaker at this point. I'm both proud and happy to say my own speaker project has been an inspiration to many other members across this forum. This, for me, confirmed I made the right choice to share as much as I did, both good and bad, along my journey.
So anyone interested in arrays, you know where to find me...
Will do
and yeah that is some project alright and well documented, I did check it out while back and yeah i wouldn't have any desire to build another one if I had that speaker as well
. thanks for sharing.It can only be done with some teamwork if able people join the team. That isn't happening for the $1k 3 way tower. I am a bit surprised because people are expressing interest and it is possibly the design with the widest appeal for those that want to build other people's designs. Disappointing but useful to have made the effort and picked up a bit about why it probably didn't fly. Perhaps a group of two or three that want to design rather than chat will form around another configuration. We will see.
I might join the 3-way tower discussion if it turns out to be the way to go in this project. At the moment, my personal preference is with another concept (the Monkey Coffin).
I think we do have enough design suggestions, does not mean that more suggestions are not welcome tho
I guess our first target is the woofer, should have high sensitivity, go deep enough, not too large and not too expensive, it is a long list of demands !
we have a few options here,
Go sealed and DSP it to go lower in smaller sealed box (without damaging the motor), 2x 8in facing forward or on the sides.
Having 2 woofers can help with sensitivity but it will end up same price as a larger better sensitivity woofer (1x10" or 12"), but the catch with single driver is we may not be able to go that low with one 10 or 12" driver, specially sealed.
we also can go with a sub as the woofer, and use a larger midrange to cover lower freqs, this will help with smaller form factor build and good sounding high sensitivity midrange that size is easier and cheaper to find maybe, but a sub with high sensitivity ?
My point is, this is a endless discussion and we need to find a fine line.
so... thoughts ?
I believe that more suggestions for design concepts might just add to the confusion about where we are supposed to go. I'd suggest to stop taking new proposals.
The bass implementation is one of the crucial design choices, and it all depends on the design targets. Since we don't have a clear and detailed list of targets, I based the Monkey Coffin suggestion (#9 in your list) on my interpretations of what members posted so far. One of the recurring themes were that (1) the speaker should work well with "weak" amplifiers (ACA, small tube amps, etc.), and (2) the speaker should be easy to make for novice builders.
Requirement (1) dictates efficient bass drivers, and impedance must not go low to achieve a clean "8 Ohm" rating. While low impedance systems may be louder for a given voltage, they still consume more current from the amp, so they are not "weak amp friendly". In a dual woofer system, the woofers would have to be 16 Ohm types to fulfill the 8 Ohm requirement of the system. There are not many 8" woofers with a 16 Ohm rating that are efficient enough to give 92 dB (2.83 V, 1m) efficiency after subtracting 3-6 dB for the baffle step. The choice will be very limited (I don't know of any driver that would fit these requirements).
While I personally can relate to the better WAF of a system with two smaller woofers, there were quite a few members who expressed how they like the monkey coffin format (such as a the Yamaha NS-5000 or the BBC monitor). That's why I suggested to go with a single larger woofer, and there are a few more drivers to choose from because the typical 8 Ohm rating works fine with a single woofer.
Requirement (2) is a bit less clear, but I feel going active is not exactly a novice thing, and it does not jive at all with the "weak amp" theme. In addition (and that's more a personal opinion), DSPs are a nice tool to develop active filter functions. For high-quality audio in active system my ears highly prefer good old analog filters. It's just awkward to use a very good DAC to convert digital music to analog, then insert a typical DSP with it's average garden type ADCs/DACs as a x-over filter. I have tried it, and while it measured very well, it did not sound very good. A simple analog filter sounded much better, but was not so easy to make. I would not consider a system depending on an active filter to be "novice friendly".
Hmm, well, why not. I'd suggest to wait a little and see what people really want. I guess Aatto will do another poll (?)
Here is a link to a partially successful group(ish) project for a monkey coffin I posted earlier. It strongly weights low budget and low frequency extension. The OP ordered the drivers but no speaker build appeared.
I was involved for a while fully intending to build one until the design moved away from what I thought was being discussed and wanted to build. I carried on with my understanding of the original concept but was eventually beaten by price. The budget Dayton woofer was twice the price here in Europe compared to the US and I could find no acceptably low priced alternative. Right price and too inefficient, right price and inadequate low frequency extension and right sensitivity and extension but too high a price.
It was interesting to watch the design evolve into something I suspect few were sufficiently keen to build (possibly including the OP). The causes seemed to be not having a clear picture of the type of speaker to be designed (the initial concept was vaguely a retro "monkey coffin" monitor but the design moved away from understanding of this), equally weighting the input from those idly chatting and those wishing to be actively involved, avoiding the choices of a close existing design,... Lessons to be learned.
I had joined what I thought was a group design for a budget retro monitor which I intended to use in the garage and for party-type social events rather than in the living room. Low price was important, sensitivity was important, easy to drive for "8 ohm" consumer hardware, able to lug around reasonably, place on side if space dictated, sufficient low frequency extension for music without subs. Not the highest of fi but decent.
Of course a group project cannot firm up on a design without losing people. The ones that lost me for a build were an emphasis on low frequency extension, large floor standing cabinet and 4 ohm load. I lost interest in the design side when I could no longer see a purpose for the speaker.
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