Faital's ?
Did you not order these ?
FAITAL PRO 8PR200 - 8" MID-BASS SPEAKER
Faital Pro 8PR200 Speakers - Faital Pro 8PR200 mid-bass, bass guitar speaker and subwoofer 8" speaker that has a lightweight neodymium magnet - Faital Pro 8PR200 400 watt 8" efficiency of 95dB SPL woofer for all high power mid-bass applications. Fa
Did you not order these ?
FAITAL PRO 8PR200 - 8" MID-BASS SPEAKER
Faital Pro 8PR200 Speakers - Faital Pro 8PR200 mid-bass, bass guitar speaker and subwoofer 8" speaker that has a lightweight neodymium magnet - Faital Pro 8PR200 400 watt 8" efficiency of 95dB SPL woofer for all high power mid-bass applications. Fa
MMTMM with a SB Satori 6.5" 4 ohms ?
MM to have a 3 db gain ? Not ideal but :
Better high XO (those Air Motion tweeter are always XO too low (below 3K hz) and Satori 6.5" is a good candidate to have a higher XO ! ... ah yes: the cost : 4 Satoris...and the wood and the space... and the concistency between Satoris itselves...
If staying on high eficienty drivers, something is always missing !
- too low XO (not the best, even for this AMT !)
- too large mid driver (diameter ? coherent soundstage and polar response ?))
- too heavy cone/BL ratio and exursion to match the AMT ?
- 3 ways only (XO too low for an AMT to match to a mid-bass medium cone?)
Finally does an AMT like this Beyma not better above 5 to 8 K Hz (= 4 ways) and even if XO below (2 to 3 K) is choosed : a low diameter cone is needed and one with a fast transcient and high eficienty or the AMT efficienty has to be lowered !
So if no Compression driver driver below this AMT or if this AMT is not mixed with a little cone driver (= 4 ways as well, like with the Compression driver) : can we have something valid for an audiophile speaker (even if efficienty is forgoten for the goal !) ?
AMT = 4 ways (not 3 ways ans certainly not 2 ways !)
MM to have a 3 db gain ? Not ideal but :
Better high XO (those Air Motion tweeter are always XO too low (below 3K hz) and Satori 6.5" is a good candidate to have a higher XO ! ... ah yes: the cost : 4 Satoris...and the wood and the space... and the concistency between Satoris itselves...
If staying on high eficienty drivers, something is always missing !
- too low XO (not the best, even for this AMT !)
- too large mid driver (diameter ? coherent soundstage and polar response ?))
- too heavy cone/BL ratio and exursion to match the AMT ?
- 3 ways only (XO too low for an AMT to match to a mid-bass medium cone?)
Finally does an AMT like this Beyma not better above 5 to 8 K Hz (= 4 ways) and even if XO below (2 to 3 K) is choosed : a low diameter cone is needed and one with a fast transcient and high eficienty or the AMT efficienty has to be lowered !
So if no Compression driver driver below this AMT or if this AMT is not mixed with a little cone driver (= 4 ways as well, like with the Compression driver) : can we have something valid for an audiophile speaker (even if efficienty is forgoten for the goal !) ?
AMT = 4 ways (not 3 ways ans certainly not 2 ways !)
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Confused but I think a 3 way will do just fine with the Beyma or other. Beyma could be used in a MTM with Satori 6 .5's or other. Maybe PM180's. There are quite a few candidates. I have been looking at doing a Raal design as of late.
For passive XO it would appear that Satori's would be just fine. But with the Beyma I have seen many 2 way designs and also 3 way designs. Some just like other types(ribbons) above 10khz. Doesnt mean it can work above 10khz though.
I will be going with a 3 way myself. I really like the look of the Satori but they have such good bass response that I would not want to use them in a 3 way and not enjoy what they do so well. 2 way with Satori's or 3 way I would use a host of other midranges.
For passive XO it would appear that Satori's would be just fine. But with the Beyma I have seen many 2 way designs and also 3 way designs. Some just like other types(ribbons) above 10khz. Doesnt mean it can work above 10khz though.
I will be going with a 3 way myself. I really like the look of the Satori but they have such good bass response that I would not want to use them in a 3 way and not enjoy what they do so well. 2 way with Satori's or 3 way I would use a host of other midranges.
Xmech ?
Sorry, but I can not find a listing for your Xmech.
X damage is listed as 13.5 for the 8PR200
FaitalPRO | LF Loudspeakers | 8PR200
Sorry, but I can not find a listing for your Xmech.
X damage is listed as 13.5 for the 8PR200
FaitalPRO | LF Loudspeakers | 8PR200
Thats probably because he looked at the USSpeakers website which has Xmech listed as 13.5mm P-P.
http://www.usspeaker.com/faital%20pro%208pr200-1.htm
FP site is correct.
http://www.usspeaker.com/faital%20pro%208pr200-1.htm
FP site is correct.
I would appreciate to see an independant measurement of this TPL à la Zaph !
I'm not an expert or haven't made any speaker by myself but when I saw an AMT to be XOed so low (1800-2000) with a relativly less rapid cone... I have some doubt of missmatch !
Yes the Satori in MTM could be probably a good candidate but at the price of a big damping of the TPL (too big resistor in serie on an AMT : has it any sense ? I don't know). I'm sure a RAAL with its transformer could be a serious candidate with the Satori ! Notice we don't see too many designs with the RAALs as the price can get coldier a dead !
I'm not an expert or haven't made any speaker by myself but when I saw an AMT to be XOed so low (1800-2000) with a relativly less rapid cone... I have some doubt of missmatch !
Yes the Satori in MTM could be probably a good candidate but at the price of a big damping of the TPL (too big resistor in serie on an AMT : has it any sense ? I don't know). I'm sure a RAAL with its transformer could be a serious candidate with the Satori ! Notice we don't see too many designs with the RAALs as the price can get coldier a dead !
Depends what alignment your doing it with. I like MTM's myself. So the Satori would be better for sensitivity matching. I also like the Dayton PM180 if only single driver being used. BUT I have not tried a lot of other ones out there. I would like to try the JA-2006 in MTM also.
BUT The TPL has plenty of power so a MTM could probably be used with those 6.5's linked if fully active.
BUT The TPL has plenty of power so a MTM could probably be used with those 6.5's linked if fully active.
I think the TPL-150H needs to be crossed over at 2kHz based on all measurements that I've seen. Fs is 1.5-1.6k with a ringing resonance, there is a dip at 1.7-1.8kHz and distortion increases below this frequency regardless of back cup on or off. Maybe 1.8kHz is doable if crossed over steeply. Crossing higher (2.2-2.5 kHz) to a 6.5" result in CTC spacing larger than 1/4th wavelength.
Consequently, a mid with an Sd of 175-200 cm2 seems to be the best match directivity-wise, which means 7-8" depending on manufacturer's definition. A typical 8" with Sd 220 cm2 probably has best match at 1.8khz but perfect directivity match is most likely less important that resonance and distortion and signature so 2kHz may still be a better XO.
I think the right 8" mid in a 3-way doing 200-2000 Hz together with the TPL-150H doing 2-20 kHz and a suitable woofer, say JBL 2245H, doing 20/30-200 Hz could be nice.
Of the BMS drivers, I'd think the newer 8N519 looks good. Of the Daytons, I'd think the PM220 is better for the task than PM180 that was mentioned. Problem is that most of the hifi-oriented manufacturers stop midrange specific drivers at 6.5" typically, with 8" having more woofer oriented TSP. AT 18H52 has an Sd of 174 cm2 (but low sensitivity). OTOH, Per Skaaning could probably make you whatever driver you want based on any of his core chassis if you cough up. There's also a rumour a 7.5" Satori will be released soon, which could have the right Sd as long as not inflated nominations, but sensitivity is of course bound to be low, necessitating active filtering.
In any case, I think matching up with 12P80Nd will remain a pipe dream. At 1.6ish kHz, you will have encountered both the Fs ringing in the TPL and the cone breakup in the 12P80Nd:
A commercial effort nevertheless with a 12" mid (Faital Pro 12PR310) mated to the TPL-150H is Tweek Geek's BMF-1:
Tweek Geek BMF-1
RMAF 2014: Tweek Geek plays with a monster
Consequently, a mid with an Sd of 175-200 cm2 seems to be the best match directivity-wise, which means 7-8" depending on manufacturer's definition. A typical 8" with Sd 220 cm2 probably has best match at 1.8khz but perfect directivity match is most likely less important that resonance and distortion and signature so 2kHz may still be a better XO.
I think the right 8" mid in a 3-way doing 200-2000 Hz together with the TPL-150H doing 2-20 kHz and a suitable woofer, say JBL 2245H, doing 20/30-200 Hz could be nice.
Of the BMS drivers, I'd think the newer 8N519 looks good. Of the Daytons, I'd think the PM220 is better for the task than PM180 that was mentioned. Problem is that most of the hifi-oriented manufacturers stop midrange specific drivers at 6.5" typically, with 8" having more woofer oriented TSP. AT 18H52 has an Sd of 174 cm2 (but low sensitivity). OTOH, Per Skaaning could probably make you whatever driver you want based on any of his core chassis if you cough up. There's also a rumour a 7.5" Satori will be released soon, which could have the right Sd as long as not inflated nominations, but sensitivity is of course bound to be low, necessitating active filtering.
In any case, I think matching up with 12P80Nd will remain a pipe dream. At 1.6ish kHz, you will have encountered both the Fs ringing in the TPL and the cone breakup in the 12P80Nd:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
A commercial effort nevertheless with a 12" mid (Faital Pro 12PR310) mated to the TPL-150H is Tweek Geek's BMF-1:
Tweek Geek BMF-1
RMAF 2014: Tweek Geek plays with a monster
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8" candidate
To mate with the Beyma TPL-150H, I would suggest the new Jantzen JA8008 HMQ developed by Troels Gravesen for his DTQWT. I haven't heard it, but on paper it seems like a great driver. Directivity-wise it will fit a 2000 Hz crossover, and it will go fairly low too and allow for a three-way design. If 95 db is not enough then a pair per side in an MMT configuration may be the ticket.
Best regards
Peter
To mate with the Beyma TPL-150H, I would suggest the new Jantzen JA8008 HMQ developed by Troels Gravesen for his DTQWT. I haven't heard it, but on paper it seems like a great driver. Directivity-wise it will fit a 2000 Hz crossover, and it will go fairly low too and allow for a three-way design. If 95 db is not enough then a pair per side in an MMT configuration may be the ticket.
Best regards
Peter
Hi InOtIn,
Thanks for the graphs!
Do you have any listening impressions regarding different enclosures for the Beyma TPL-150H (stock vs. OB vs. enlarged 5 liter chamber)??
Thanks!
Best regards
Peter
Thanks for the graphs!
Do you have any listening impressions regarding different enclosures for the Beyma TPL-150H (stock vs. OB vs. enlarged 5 liter chamber)??
Thanks!
Best regards
Peter
I think the TPL-150H needs to be crossed over at 2kHz based on all measurements that I've seen. Fs is 1.5-1.6k with a ringing resonance, there is a dip at 1.7-1.8kHz and distortion increases below this frequency regardless of back cup on or off. Maybe 1.8kHz is doable if crossed over steeply. Crossing higher (2.2-2.5 kHz) to a 6.5" result in CTC spacing larger than 1/4th wavelength.
Consequently, a mid with an Sd of 175-200 cm2 seems to be the best match directivity-wise, which means 7-8" depending on manufacturer's definition. A typical 8" with Sd 220 cm2 probably has best match at 1.8khz but perfect directivity match is most likely less important that resonance and distortion and signature so 2kHz may still be a better XO.
I think the right 8" mid in a 3-way doing 200-2000 Hz together with the TPL-150H doing 2-20 kHz and a suitable woofer, say JBL 2245H, doing 20/30-200 Hz could be nice.
Of the BMS drivers, I'd think the newer 8N519 looks good. Of the Daytons, I'd think the PM220 is better for the task than PM180 that was mentioned. Problem is that most of the hifi-oriented manufacturers stop midrange specific drivers at 6.5" typically, with 8" having more woofer oriented TSP. AT 18H52 has an Sd of 174 cm2 (but low sensitivity). OTOH, Per Skaaning could probably make you whatever driver you want based on any of his core chassis if you cough up. There's also a rumour a 7.5" Satori will be released soon, which could have the right Sd as long as not inflated nominations, but sensitivity is of course bound to be low, necessitating active filtering.
In any case, I think matching up with 12P80Nd will remain a pipe dream. At 1.6ish kHz, you will have encountered both the Fs ringing in the TPL and the cone breakup in the 12P80Nd:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
A commercial effort nevertheless with a 12" mid (Faital Pro 12PR310) mated to the TPL-150H is Tweek Geek's BMF-1:
Tweek Geek BMF-1
RMAF 2014: Tweek Geek plays with a monster
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Getting accurate driver measures is a... B_I_T_C_H
Who can you trust before you spend thousands on drivers for a new design? Looks like you pays your money and you takes your chances.
2008 Beyma measurements of the TPL-150 and TPL-150H at 1m and 1watt.
InOtIn .... Thanks for posting the BMF-1 link. I believe the topology of T-M on a narrow front baffle, plus two W in side counter-force woofers will become very popular, especially with large radius low-diffraction front edges.
FYI... Voice Coil measurement of Dayton PM220-8 you mentioned ... not as scary as the Dayton datasheet.
Who can you trust before you spend thousands on drivers for a new design? Looks like you pays your money and you takes your chances.
2008 Beyma measurements of the TPL-150 and TPL-150H at 1m and 1watt.
InOtIn .... Thanks for posting the BMF-1 link. I believe the topology of T-M on a narrow front baffle, plus two W in side counter-force woofers will become very popular, especially with large radius low-diffraction front edges.
FYI... Voice Coil measurement of Dayton PM220-8 you mentioned ... not as scary as the Dayton datasheet.
Attachments
I wonder what the Audio Technology 15H52 or other model from them would offer over a AE TD6M or other high quality midrange.
Those AT drivers are expensive. Makes me think the Jantzen would be a bargain. Even the AE are less money so I wonder about anyones thoughts that have actually played with any of these uber drivers before.
Those AT drivers are expensive. Makes me think the Jantzen would be a bargain. Even the AE are less money so I wonder about anyones thoughts that have actually played with any of these uber drivers before.