Hi Studley,
My current reference DAC is a Holo May KTE, but I also have a Ian Canada stack and had many commercial and DIY projects, including a modded Mirand DAC.
I’ll report later on with my comparison with the Holo May KTE.
Thanks
Do
Hi pinnocchio,
See a possible audible problem or two in the pics. Be interested to read your listening impressions. Also would suggest to try a DSD dac board at some point. Should be able to plug into what you already have, for the most part anyway. IME RTZ DSD dac boards have a lot to offer.
Hi Mark,
So far the DAC is totally silent but I have not forgotten about the possibility to add the output filter, but not really needed so far. Also, if I have any EMI/RFI, I made it so I can easily add a steel plate/copper in between the DAC and the FIFO.
You’re talking about DSD board. We’re you referring to Andrea’s DSD board or Marcel’s?
Thanks
Do
Hi All, I've been using Andrea's DAC/Clocks for over a year now. I was one of the lucky first few and purchased them on the basis of Andrea's passion to consistently improve and great sonic experiences with his clocks.
For context, my system is - Ian Canada Streamer (Batteries + Ultracaps for Power supplies, PI4, FIFOPI Q3, Reclocker, Andrea Clocks and HDMI Output) to Andrea DAC to Icon 4PRO autoformer pre-amp which drives four mono-blocks. First pair of mono blocks are Audio Note Kegon Balanced clones (PSET 300b + 10Y, Audio Note silver output transformer and interstage, with a WE348A/6J7G input stage) to drive above 200hz and the second pair are Purifi Monoblock with Neurochrome buffer powered by Microaudio Mundorf equipped 1200W power supplies with dual regulation (Sparko Regs (4 per channel) for below 200hz. For Speakers I'm using Troels Gravesen the loudspeaker 2 (cabinets built by the amazing Noam on here) with upgraded crossover parts such as the newish Mundorf M-Resist ultra resistors etc.
I have built a few projects - similar to Pinocchio above - Miranda DAC, Ian Canada Stack and I've been lucky to have friends bring over MSB and Lampizator Dacs.
What do I think... I think I am very privileged to have a DAC that can ring out everything my system is capable off and there are people like Andrea out there pushing what's possible to the DIY market at very reasonable pricing. No one has managed to bring a DAC here and walked away saying subjectively or objectively it competes with Andrea's DAC. Sligodad had it right in this post: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...ffer-slaved-i2s-reclocker.348074/post-7033730
I'm surprised about the proponents of HQplayer. I have been a user of HQP since 2015 utilising it for ESS and AKM dacs. PCM and DSD are certainly a subjective preference, but what I'm sure on is that HQP's filters and modulators are a lot better than what's on those chips. However, utilising Andrea's DAC, I loose vibrancy and magic. It's not subtle. Admittedly I'm limited to 192 but this is experience is shared with other friends with nice systems. We no longer utilise HQP for up-sampling, but we do use it as the software as it sounds better than UPNP/Squeezelite. My software setup is - Home Server with Roon Server feeding an Intel NUC which has HQPembedded (zero up-sampling set-up - pass through - bass convolution filters here (just Frequency changes below 200hz) to streamer highlighted above.
If you have an opportunity to build this DAC, a system with the required resolution and an acoustically treated room. Do it. You will not regret it and I'm confident substantially more money will be required to compete with retail. Interested to see the comparisons to the Holo May KTE and I suppose power supplies with be a part of that.
A bit about my build, I used MP-Audio power supplies (Dual Regulation), 5/6 clocks and toroidy supreme transformers. I went this direction due to the following article and prior success with dual regulation: https://www.mpaudio.net/post/how-to-maximize-psrr
Maybe a bit overkill, with 80 LT3045's in my build. There may be more to gain with a shunt regulator or another solution to the Array, but I can't be bothered to try.. It's that good.
For context, my system is - Ian Canada Streamer (Batteries + Ultracaps for Power supplies, PI4, FIFOPI Q3, Reclocker, Andrea Clocks and HDMI Output) to Andrea DAC to Icon 4PRO autoformer pre-amp which drives four mono-blocks. First pair of mono blocks are Audio Note Kegon Balanced clones (PSET 300b + 10Y, Audio Note silver output transformer and interstage, with a WE348A/6J7G input stage) to drive above 200hz and the second pair are Purifi Monoblock with Neurochrome buffer powered by Microaudio Mundorf equipped 1200W power supplies with dual regulation (Sparko Regs (4 per channel) for below 200hz. For Speakers I'm using Troels Gravesen the loudspeaker 2 (cabinets built by the amazing Noam on here) with upgraded crossover parts such as the newish Mundorf M-Resist ultra resistors etc.
I have built a few projects - similar to Pinocchio above - Miranda DAC, Ian Canada Stack and I've been lucky to have friends bring over MSB and Lampizator Dacs.
What do I think... I think I am very privileged to have a DAC that can ring out everything my system is capable off and there are people like Andrea out there pushing what's possible to the DIY market at very reasonable pricing. No one has managed to bring a DAC here and walked away saying subjectively or objectively it competes with Andrea's DAC. Sligodad had it right in this post: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...ffer-slaved-i2s-reclocker.348074/post-7033730
I'm surprised about the proponents of HQplayer. I have been a user of HQP since 2015 utilising it for ESS and AKM dacs. PCM and DSD are certainly a subjective preference, but what I'm sure on is that HQP's filters and modulators are a lot better than what's on those chips. However, utilising Andrea's DAC, I loose vibrancy and magic. It's not subtle. Admittedly I'm limited to 192 but this is experience is shared with other friends with nice systems. We no longer utilise HQP for up-sampling, but we do use it as the software as it sounds better than UPNP/Squeezelite. My software setup is - Home Server with Roon Server feeding an Intel NUC which has HQPembedded (zero up-sampling set-up - pass through - bass convolution filters here (just Frequency changes below 200hz) to streamer highlighted above.
If you have an opportunity to build this DAC, a system with the required resolution and an acoustically treated room. Do it. You will not regret it and I'm confident substantially more money will be required to compete with retail. Interested to see the comparisons to the Holo May KTE and I suppose power supplies with be a part of that.
A bit about my build, I used MP-Audio power supplies (Dual Regulation), 5/6 clocks and toroidy supreme transformers. I went this direction due to the following article and prior success with dual regulation: https://www.mpaudio.net/post/how-to-maximize-psrr
Maybe a bit overkill, with 80 LT3045's in my build. There may be more to gain with a shunt regulator or another solution to the Array, but I can't be bothered to try.. It's that good.
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Hi Mark, thanks for continuing to push this conversation forward!
Personally I've had great experience of tantalum resistors in analogue. Either as a loading resistor or somewhere in a tube amplifier. My preference for resistors is (in the following order) Z-Foil's, manganin, thin film foils, Audio Note Tantalums and then everything else.. TKD/Takman/Any carbon etc.
No idea whether my subjective taste would also apply to Andrea's DAC, I've used them for very different purposes. Very interested to keep on reading everyones experience, thanks for the input and I'm sure Andrea is reading for his sonic-empire version.
I'm not sure what to make of your comment on Mundorf Capacitors! I certainly have done a lot of comparisons with them and harmonic exciter isn't something I'd call them lol. Admittedly used as coupling caps, they're detailed compared to foil caps, but that applies for all PP Film caps.
Hi Do,
Andrea's DSD board and the optional dual shunt regulator power supply is what I would recommend for you. My recommendation would also be to take it with the stock resistors instead of tantalum (tantalum gave some audible distortion and coloration here), and I prefer the original faster flip-flops too. You already have everything needed to drive it, you could just swap out Andrea's PCM board to try the DSD board. If you want to keep both boards as active dacs, IIUC Andrea is working on his own USB board to drive dacs at lower cost then the FIFO board you have, but the USB board would only support USB. Also IIUC, eventually he may make a FIFO board that can drive two dac boards, one PCM and one DSD. Don't know when that might happen though.
Regarding Marcel's dac, I am still doing some experiments with one. However it might be a bit more complicated to hook up so it can be driven with your existing clocks and FIFO board in order to give it a fair test. I will write more about it in Marcel's thread as I continue to try some things.
Regarding EMI/RFI, the only symptom might be a slight veiling of the sound you may not even realize is an artifact and not something on the recordings or something about the rest of your system. I wrote about how I found out I had a problem at: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/problematic-usb-isolator-unit.399247/post-7356655
Best,
Mark
Hi Sebbyp,
In Andrea's DSD the stock Yageo resistors gave the most true sound as compared to optical vinyl playback of records made from original master tapes. Tantalum resistor produced noticeable coloration and distortion we didn't like. Other metal thin film resistor brands tended to blur the sound to varying degrees which was presumably due to Excesss/Current noise effects. One thing that hasn't been tried yet are SMD metal foil resistors, but either 64 or 128 of them would be required (with minimum pricing of about $8/ea).
Best,
Marl
Hi stew1234,
I'm using a Amanero Combo384 with better clocks than original design, not that it is super important when using the FIFO. I had it in stock for a few years and it finally saw some use.
If anyone knows a good SPIDF/Toslink/AES board I could add to my setup, I would appreciate the info. I've only found some cheaper eBay/Ali boards with manual switching but I would prefer auto sensing of input.
Thanks
Do
I'm using a Amanero Combo384 with better clocks than original design, not that it is super important when using the FIFO. I had it in stock for a few years and it finally saw some use.
If anyone knows a good SPIDF/Toslink/AES board I could add to my setup, I would appreciate the info. I've only found some cheaper eBay/Ali boards with manual switching but I would prefer auto sensing of input.
Thanks
Do
I use IanCanada RecieverPI for that purpose. However, I only use that for friends coming over with sources or TV now. I’ve moved to HDMI for dedicated listening time. I use an older Ian Canada board, for HDMI on the source side, but tempted to upgrade to his Pro.
For usb, I only experienced the amanero in the T+A dac 8. It was a very nice DAC. I did very much like JLsounds usb board though. Had good success providing an improved master clock, over and above the NDK’s.
Through my listening tests, I’ve found a positive difference in re-clocking the signal prior to FIFO. Even with Andrea’s FIFO. The feeding source is important.
I felt validated when DDC’s were produced, that were feeding DACs with the latest/best oscillators or synthesisers and the general consensus of improved sound. Their value has never been argued.
For usb, I only experienced the amanero in the T+A dac 8. It was a very nice DAC. I did very much like JLsounds usb board though. Had good success providing an improved master clock, over and above the NDK’s.
Through my listening tests, I’ve found a positive difference in re-clocking the signal prior to FIFO. Even with Andrea’s FIFO. The feeding source is important.
I felt validated when DDC’s were produced, that were feeding DACs with the latest/best oscillators or synthesisers and the general consensus of improved sound. Their value has never been argued.
From the source? Optical is a great way to test for electrical isolation and I think you’re right. EMI/RFI is key. Noisy sources like my TV are on optical to my DAC.
However, It’s easy to test, take some very basic clocks and re-clock it upstream. Improve the clocks upstream and listen. We used a fifopi Q3 for our blind shootout with the basic clocks that come with it, Crystek, NDK and Andrea Mori.
For me and my friends, this is not difficult to hear. Even MSB have now introduced it (clocked twice): https://msbtechnology.com/the-digital-director/
Holo too have gone that route and created a streamer/DDC to their dac with excellent jitter and noise measurements: https://goldensound.audio/2023/02/09/holo-red-streamer-ddc-measurements/
However, It’s easy to test, take some very basic clocks and re-clock it upstream. Improve the clocks upstream and listen. We used a fifopi Q3 for our blind shootout with the basic clocks that come with it, Crystek, NDK and Andrea Mori.
For me and my friends, this is not difficult to hear. Even MSB have now introduced it (clocked twice): https://msbtechnology.com/the-digital-director/
Holo too have gone that route and created a streamer/DDC to their dac with excellent jitter and noise measurements: https://goldensound.audio/2023/02/09/holo-red-streamer-ddc-measurements/
I have tried the dual regulation MPA LT3045 power supplies in many applications and found they generally sound great. As you note, perhaps there are analog or similar power rails that sometimes benefit from shunt supplies, but have come back to using/trying them more than any other power supplies. Part of that is probably that the battery/ultracap supplies don't offer fully variable output.
Did you realize any benefits to toroidal transformers you're using here vs. r core? They appear to be higher quality but I have had good experience with even cheap ebay r cores and the LT3045.
I personally haven't experimented with Toroid vs. R core with LT3045's or any digital supplies. Interestingly, I have been deep diving into that topic, as I was considering replacing my mains transformers for a tube amplifier and started to review the benefits of EI vs. R-Core vs. Toroid. As we all know, Toroids and R-core have a lower radiated magnetic field, than traditional EI Stuff. R-core's also don't have an issue with high inrush current, more leakage inductance so limiting HF Response and ultimately less responsive to DC on Mains. I think you can deal with all of those issues with a toroid, but I believe an R-Core would be a fantastic choice.
I'm sure your getting excellent results with R-Core transformers and aren't missing anything substantial.
I use toroidy toroidal transformers for a few reasons.
Added VAC on edit - bear in mind this is calculated for dual regulation..
Transformer 1:
In hindsight, I would have done it differently. I was erring on three transformers, therefore allowing me separate transformers for analogue, but I kept considering size. Shortly after building and bake off to my friends MSB Reference. We opened up the power supply and I saw 7 transformers! Doing a bit of research the only real difference between the reference and premier is in the power supply. See attachments. In future, I'd do that and will do for Andrea's Sonic Empire build.
I hope that helps. Seb
I'm sure your getting excellent results with R-Core transformers and aren't missing anything substantial.
I use toroidy toroidal transformers for a few reasons.
- They're happy to produce virtually any custom transformer, with up to 4 secondaries. Ultimately makes my builds a lot more compact and the pricing is incredibly reasonable. This becomes very cost effective, if you'd be ordering multiple transformers with two rails.
- I can oversize the transformer, but ask for a specific voltage at a specific current. I.E I could have a 7VDC with 1A requirement. I could spec 5x in the secondary - I.E 7VDC 5A, but toroidy will ensure that I will see 7VDC when used with a 1A load. This makes all the transformers I have extremely cool, especially when combined with their natural high efficiency.
- I order the transformers which include interwinding shields, that will help deal with the RF transmission
- If you order them from MP Audio, together with your LT3045 board, he will use a Quasimodo and set-up an accurate tuned r/c network on the secondary to further reduce RF and he does this for free! (It's time consuming...)
- DC on the mains is easily dealt with by a filter on the incoming mains
- The Supreme versions are vacuum encapsulated with epoxy. I've never had noise or hum from any I've ordered and the steel casing is grounded to earth - minimal EMI/RFI impacts and ultra easy to then layout with other circuits
- The polished look, looks like a million dollars in real life and really up's the show off factor - I'm slightly vain lol
- Toroidy and MPaudio are both great businesses and deserves success for their high quality products and I'd like to see them keep going. Especially when DIY Audio is a small total addressable market and I'd hate to see them not be here
Added VAC on edit - bear in mind this is calculated for dual regulation..
Transformer 1:
- 7vDC - 200 ma usage - 1 amp rail - 6.9VAC/1A
- 3.3vDC - 30 ma usage - 1 amp rail - 4.3VAC/1A
- 2x 14vDC rails - 60ma usage - 1 amp rail for each - 2x11.9VAC/1A
- 2x 3.3vDC - 50 ma usage - 1 amp rail for each - 2x 4.3VAC/1A
- 2x 4V DC - 30 ma usage - 1 amp rail for each - 2x 4.8VAC/1A
In hindsight, I would have done it differently. I was erring on three transformers, therefore allowing me separate transformers for analogue, but I kept considering size. Shortly after building and bake off to my friends MSB Reference. We opened up the power supply and I saw 7 transformers! Doing a bit of research the only real difference between the reference and premier is in the power supply. See attachments. In future, I'd do that and will do for Andrea's Sonic Empire build.
I hope that helps. Seb
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"The feeding source is important"
I have Andrea's FIFO with DRIXO 5Mhz and 6 Mhz in my DAC,but I decided to take care of my source anyway,So I added a Q7-SinePi-DRIXO 11Mhz/12Mhz-HdmiPiPro to the Raspi4,all is much more accurate,a big difference,in my opinion the FIFO is interesting to take advantage of good clocks in our case the DRIXOs of andrea,but not necessarily to isolate the source.
To feed the DRIXOs i have obtained excellent results with Salas SSLV1.3 UltraBiB shunt regulator,much better than with the TWRPS-UGL,mainly in the bass frequency,
I use a O Core transformer,sebbyp I advise you to take an interest in O Core transformer,I guess this contributes a lot to the good result I have with the UltraBiB.
http://jamestransformer.com/en/transformer/O_core_transformer.html
I have Andrea's FIFO with DRIXO 5Mhz and 6 Mhz in my DAC,but I decided to take care of my source anyway,So I added a Q7-SinePi-DRIXO 11Mhz/12Mhz-HdmiPiPro to the Raspi4,all is much more accurate,a big difference,in my opinion the FIFO is interesting to take advantage of good clocks in our case the DRIXOs of andrea,but not necessarily to isolate the source.
To feed the DRIXOs i have obtained excellent results with Salas SSLV1.3 UltraBiB shunt regulator,much better than with the TWRPS-UGL,mainly in the bass frequency,
I use a O Core transformer,sebbyp I advise you to take an interest in O Core transformer,I guess this contributes a lot to the good result I have with the UltraBiB.
http://jamestransformer.com/en/transformer/O_core_transformer.html
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I second the recommendation for o core transformers.
I changed to toroids on my DDAC to o core on both digital and analog supplies.
First changing the analog and listening then the digital.
There was significant audible improvement at each step.
Much more than I would have believed before doing this.
I changed to toroids on my DDAC to o core on both digital and analog supplies.
First changing the analog and listening then the digital.
There was significant audible improvement at each step.
Much more than I would have believed before doing this.