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10F/8424 & RS225-8 FAST / WAW Ref Monitor
10F/8424 & RS225-8 FAST / WAW Ref Monitor
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Old 11th January 2018, 01:17 AM   #941
xrk971 is offline xrk971  United States
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10F/8424 & RS225-8 FAST / WAW Ref Monitor
There’s a lot of padding resistors to tame that 10F’s rising response plus the Zobel.
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Old 11th January 2018, 05:37 AM   #942
Aatto is offline Aatto  United States
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10F/8424 & RS225-8 FAST / WAW Ref Monitor
?
Calculate Baffle Step Correction Network
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Old 11th January 2018, 03:34 PM   #943
xrk971 is offline xrk971  United States
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In a 2-way, if you put XO right about where baffle step occurs, the BSC can be handled as a system rather than just trying to burn off the response in the tweeter or the woofer. In general, the woofer is the rate limiting driver and it will have typically -4dB to -5dB of bass falloff below the baffle step frequency (except for BLH and FLH where actual acoustic gain occurs in bass frequencies), all other alignments cannot have *true* sensitivity of the system any higher than woofer minus 5dB. Almost all commercial speakers lie about their sensitivity by quoting sensitivity at 1kHz or something. They should quote sensitivity at 100Hz if not 60Hz, where it matters and is rate limited. So for a bass driver with 89dB sensitivity, the overall system can be no higher than 85dB. You can see this with studio monitors from trusted brands where their monitors are rated typically 85dB maybe 86dB (and they have nice efficient 8in or 12 in woofers). Compare that to typical bass reflex HiFi speakers with ratings like 89dB or 92dB, or even an absurd 96dB, which is a bunch of hyperbole of course...

If the alignment is a BLH or even ML-TQWT, like a Karlsonator, there is actual acoustic gain in bass frequencies. Take for example, the 0.53x Karlsonator with dual 91dB 3FE35-16ohm drivers in parallel, it is a true 97dB sensitive 8-ohm speaker at 80Hz (as there is about 5dB of bass gain due to the speaker cabinet itself), no BSC circuit is used.

So having said that, the sensitivity of the 10F/RS225-8 is about 82dB at 60Hz. So we need to pad down the midtweet by about 5dB to 7 dB to get a balanced output. This is where a second woofer in a bipole can help to bring that -5dB loss back and overall system can then be 87dB.
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Last edited by xrk971; 11th January 2018 at 03:38 PM.
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Old 11th January 2018, 04:14 PM   #944
mikejennens is offline mikejennens  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aatto View Post
In a nutshell...Baffle step happens because the wavelength of lower frequencies is longer than the width of the baffle. Being so, some of the sound energy radiates to places other than toward the listener (the sides and back of the enclosure); therefore, some of the volume/loudness of the bass is lost. The high frequency has a shorter wave length, so it doesn't "wrap around" the enclosure. It radiates toward the listeners; therefore, doesn't lose any volume/loudness like the bass. An infinite baffle will not really have any baffle step issues.
Mike

BSC made simple (and why it may be important to you) – Audioblog

Loudspeaker Diffraction Loss and Baffle Step Compensation Circuits
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Old 11th January 2018, 07:53 PM   #945
xrk971 is offline xrk971  United States
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Default 10F/8424 & RS225-8 Transient Perfect XO

Here is the Xsim results using my measured FRD and ZMA files from early on this project. Nowadays, I would have used FDW gating of 6 cycles rather than the 1/12th octave smoothed data as shown here.

Here is the schematic (with 4.4uF & 0.47R filter added for woofer):
10F/8424 & RS225-8 FAST / WAW Ref Monitor-xrk971-10f-rs225-fast-schematic-jpg

Here is the predicted frequency response & phase, it would appear that the XO frequency is visually somewhere closer to 800Hz:
10F/8424 & RS225-8 FAST / WAW Ref Monitor-xrk971-10f-rs225-fast-freq-jpg

Here is the predicted impedance:
10F/8424 & RS225-8 FAST / WAW Ref Monitor-xrk971-10f-rs225-fast-impedance-jpg

Here is the predicted step response:
10F/8424 & RS225-8 FAST / WAW Ref Monitor-xrk971-10f-rs225-fast-step-jpg

Here is the predicted square wave at 1kHz:
10F/8424 & RS225-8 FAST / WAW Ref Monitor-xrk971-10f-rs225-fast-square-jpg

The Xsim project file is attached as a zip file.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg xrk971-10F-RS225-FAST-Schematic.jpg (38.3 KB, 11612 views)
File Type: jpg xrk971-10F-RS225-FAST-Freq.jpg (88.2 KB, 9893 views)
File Type: jpg xrk971-10F-RS225-FAST-Impedance.jpg (84.6 KB, 703 views)
File Type: jpg xrk971-10F-RS225-FAST-Step.jpg (19.7 KB, 688 views)
File Type: jpg xrk971-10F-RS225-FAST-Square.jpg (20.1 KB, 1014 views)
Attached Files
File Type: zip XRK971-10F-RS225-FAST-XO-Transient-Perfect.zip (19.9 KB, 42 views)
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Last edited by xrk971; 11th January 2018 at 07:59 PM.
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Old 11th January 2018, 08:17 PM   #946
robert1111 is offline robert1111
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Thank you. Thank you very much for everything.
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Old 12th January 2018, 12:34 AM   #947
BYRTT is offline BYRTT  Denmark
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10F/8424 & RS225-8 FAST / WAW Ref Monitor
How about these graphs X : ) its still a 1st order XO and still 10F and AC130 can sit its own small enclosure with mid tweeter below woofer and then place SB23 on floor.

In theory think many improvements will happen, one is break up areas for AC130 and SB23 is relative better depressed, one is 10F/AC130/SB23 all show their own good distortion figures and smooth response inside these bandwidths, one is with these less driver diameter steps off axis coherency should be better covered between bands.

Target curve verse 10F datasheet:
10F/8424 & RS225-8 FAST / WAW Ref Monitor-3000-png

Target curve verse AC130 datasheet:
10F/8424 & RS225-8 FAST / WAW Ref Monitor-3001-png

Target curve verse SB23 datasheet:
10F/8424 & RS225-8 FAST / WAW Ref Monitor-3002-png

System sum 50Hz-18kHz band pass (transient perfect):
10F/8424 & RS225-8 FAST / WAW Ref Monitor-3003-png
Attached Images
File Type: png 3000.png (22.9 KB, 671 views)
File Type: png 3001.png (21.8 KB, 666 views)
File Type: png 3002.png (25.1 KB, 667 views)
File Type: png 3003.png (30.8 KB, 672 views)
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Old 12th January 2018, 01:26 AM   #948
xrk971 is offline xrk971  United States
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We could almost do hole-filler with this scheme. 2nd order on SB23 and 10F and 1st order on AC130. AC130 is almost a wide band driver.
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Old 12th January 2018, 02:00 AM   #949
BYRTT is offline BYRTT  Denmark
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Yes but for real hole filler its scary in real world that SB23 slope shall be as smooth as 10F on and off axis up where they 2nd order meet and supposed to acoustic perfect cancel each other out.
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Old 12th January 2018, 06:47 AM   #950
xrk971 is offline xrk971  United States
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The SB23's showed up. They are really nicely made. I connected them to the RS225 XO sitting outside of the box and they sound quite nice. They are larger than RS225 by maybe 5mm so not a drop-in replacement. I will have to get some test baffles made.
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