What I finally get about the FF85WK
Like I said I really came into the forum to discuss the 4" but I'm happy to see what you guys think of the setup and anywhere I might be going wrong, unreasonable expectations,etc. I feel like I've given them enough time to get used to a lot more detail.
Brightness might be the wrong word. Sibilance is zero issue. Cymbals and hi-hat sound great. The upper part of female voices sounds great (upper chest, neck, voice box, enunciation). Perhaps brash is a better word. I knew they would be a bit forward and perhaps that is part of what I hear, but I feel like I'm separating out the forwardness/shouty from my perception of the sound signature.
The other night I listened to them (critical listening) for about six hours. Not full songs, hopping around while playing with running them with EQ, wide open, different volumes, sub in, sub out, X-over points, sat back a bit, etc. At the end I was disappointed with how they had worked out for me. (not blaming the speaker)
The wall to the right of me could probably use some sound absorption which is about 2' away from the speaker. But other than that the room is pretty much mixed surfaces, carpet on the floor. The Speakers are about 8" away from the (bare) wall behind them. The room is about 10x12. The back wall is about 6' behind me. But I'm not trying to fill the room. But I did notice that a good solid foot back from where I sit there is a sweet spot where they sound the best. I have tried pushing them back closer to the wall, and further out on the desk to get them further away with mixed results.
Outboard gear
I'm using the usb out of my computer to a Topping VX1. The headphone out of the topping goes to the line in on the sub. It's one of the reasons I got the VX1 is because it can output both speakers and headphone at the same time.
TOPPING VX1
The drivers are in ufonken cabinets, exactly according to the plans. I was very careful on all steps especially fitting the brace. Touching, but not too tight. I put in all the deadining material as close to the plans as I could.
They are on a monitor bridge and then on 4" stands that weigh 1lb each. As I sit the speakers are just about ear level and I have them facing straight out into the room in a roughly 3" equilateral position with me at my desk. I have played with the position a lot. Though they sound pretty good pointed dead at my head.
The sub is built around the TB 5 1/2" sub speaker built in a 9l sealed box. F3 was about mid 70ish. I forget the Q but it was in the .7s
I crossover the sub at about 160hz. Though I've played with it anywhere from 180 to 120. At lower volumes I like to feed a bit of lows to the speakers. Trying for that balance I guess that Bob mentioned.
I mostly use Foobar player using the WASAPI driver. Files are 192kbs or better. I have a folder of all 320k and Flac that is my 'library' for foobar.
That's the story and I appreciate you guys taking an interest in my enjoyment of the speakers.
Like I said I really came into the forum to discuss the 4" but I'm happy to see what you guys think of the setup and anywhere I might be going wrong, unreasonable expectations,etc. I feel like I've given them enough time to get used to a lot more detail.
Brightness might be the wrong word. Sibilance is zero issue. Cymbals and hi-hat sound great. The upper part of female voices sounds great (upper chest, neck, voice box, enunciation). Perhaps brash is a better word. I knew they would be a bit forward and perhaps that is part of what I hear, but I feel like I'm separating out the forwardness/shouty from my perception of the sound signature.
The other night I listened to them (critical listening) for about six hours. Not full songs, hopping around while playing with running them with EQ, wide open, different volumes, sub in, sub out, X-over points, sat back a bit, etc. At the end I was disappointed with how they had worked out for me. (not blaming the speaker)
The wall to the right of me could probably use some sound absorption which is about 2' away from the speaker. But other than that the room is pretty much mixed surfaces, carpet on the floor. The Speakers are about 8" away from the (bare) wall behind them. The room is about 10x12. The back wall is about 6' behind me. But I'm not trying to fill the room. But I did notice that a good solid foot back from where I sit there is a sweet spot where they sound the best. I have tried pushing them back closer to the wall, and further out on the desk to get them further away with mixed results.
Outboard gear
I'm using the usb out of my computer to a Topping VX1. The headphone out of the topping goes to the line in on the sub. It's one of the reasons I got the VX1 is because it can output both speakers and headphone at the same time.
TOPPING VX1
The drivers are in ufonken cabinets, exactly according to the plans. I was very careful on all steps especially fitting the brace. Touching, but not too tight. I put in all the deadining material as close to the plans as I could.
They are on a monitor bridge and then on 4" stands that weigh 1lb each. As I sit the speakers are just about ear level and I have them facing straight out into the room in a roughly 3" equilateral position with me at my desk. I have played with the position a lot. Though they sound pretty good pointed dead at my head.
The sub is built around the TB 5 1/2" sub speaker built in a 9l sealed box. F3 was about mid 70ish. I forget the Q but it was in the .7s
I crossover the sub at about 160hz. Though I've played with it anywhere from 180 to 120. At lower volumes I like to feed a bit of lows to the speakers. Trying for that balance I guess that Bob mentioned.
I mostly use Foobar player using the WASAPI driver. Files are 192kbs or better. I have a folder of all 320k and Flac that is my 'library' for foobar.
That's the story and I appreciate you guys taking an interest in my enjoyment of the speakers.
Last edited:
Speaker on stand, sub, monitor bridge
Those are the Kanspea's that the FF85's came out of.
The sub is 7" x 11" to give you some scale.
The sub is usually pushed back further. It was pulled out for the picture.
The stands are 4" PVC couplers filled with 1lb of salt.
Those are the Kanspea's that the FF85's came out of.
The sub is 7" x 11" to give you some scale.
The sub is usually pushed back further. It was pulled out for the picture.
The stands are 4" PVC couplers filled with 1lb of salt.
Attachments
I mentioned that I had done a real diy project while bolting speakers into other peoples designs. It takes off on the idea of the NRNP sub. I also added a few of my own design goals besides no router. Besides the obvious of it fitting under the monitor bridge . . . No ripping of wood to width. All wood had to be able to be cut to length in a miter box. All hand tools and no clamps. (super glue and a few creative jigs)
Most of it is obvious from the pictures but I'll mention that the corner gussets around the speaker are 1/4" thick hard oak to give the speaker some room to breath.
The sides are made from 1/2" x 3" pine I got at Lowes.
I did the calculations in WinISD and played with most of the other free design tools and a couple of web sites. This one especially: mh-audio.nl - Calculations
I also learned sketchup to do the drawings. And wasn't that a chore, with all the detail I needed.
Since I was using single point speakers I liked the idea of having the sub in the same plane with the speakers and I think it worked out really well that way. Phase coherence and all that. And being able to tweak the bass settings is bonus.
The only thing that didn't work out was the top has some resonance but for the time being it's 'fixed' with a 5lb plate on top of it, which actually worked out really well since it added some mass which tied it into the heavy glass table it sits on. I haven't stuffed it yet, and I think that is going to benefit it from what I read. That's on my to do list.
Most of it is obvious from the pictures but I'll mention that the corner gussets around the speaker are 1/4" thick hard oak to give the speaker some room to breath.
The sides are made from 1/2" x 3" pine I got at Lowes.
I did the calculations in WinISD and played with most of the other free design tools and a couple of web sites. This one especially: mh-audio.nl - Calculations
I also learned sketchup to do the drawings. And wasn't that a chore, with all the detail I needed.
Since I was using single point speakers I liked the idea of having the sub in the same plane with the speakers and I think it worked out really well that way. Phase coherence and all that. And being able to tweak the bass settings is bonus.
The only thing that didn't work out was the top has some resonance but for the time being it's 'fixed' with a 5lb plate on top of it, which actually worked out really well since it added some mass which tied it into the heavy glass table it sits on. I haven't stuffed it yet, and I think that is going to benefit it from what I read. That's on my to do list.
Attachments
Morning
I have lived with this driver for a year now in a Lance build:
http://wodendesign.com/downloads/Woden-FF85-Lance-Laby-1v01-180214.pdf
I can say that I love the forward sound...no shout...but sitting front row rather than back of the hall...
There is no nasty's with this driver...it's very natural and smooth...
I have to say...your choice of amp is not the best...I've tried numerous tripath amps and none have had...IMO...a great outcome...
Class A amps are really good...and at the moment I'm running a 3116 amp...which to me mimics the Class A sound...
I have a minimal setup...nothing out of the ordinary...3116 fed by a Touch with a Hifimediy Sabre DAC...second input is for my records...
My sub is an Energy I bought used for $100 🙂
I run my Lance's full out and my sub comes in about 80-90hz...I run high level but the sub has no outputs which is why this is hooked up the way it is...
For me to live with a speaker as long as I have done with this one is surprising...even my wife say so LOL!!!
If you're not thrilled...I would definitely try another type of amp...and secondly try the Lance build...I built the uFonken first...like you...but found the driver to be smoother and easier to blend in with the sub in the Lance...again...my little opinion 🙂
Hope this helps!!
Toodles!!
I have lived with this driver for a year now in a Lance build:
http://wodendesign.com/downloads/Woden-FF85-Lance-Laby-1v01-180214.pdf
I can say that I love the forward sound...no shout...but sitting front row rather than back of the hall...
There is no nasty's with this driver...it's very natural and smooth...
I have to say...your choice of amp is not the best...I've tried numerous tripath amps and none have had...IMO...a great outcome...
Class A amps are really good...and at the moment I'm running a 3116 amp...which to me mimics the Class A sound...
I have a minimal setup...nothing out of the ordinary...3116 fed by a Touch with a Hifimediy Sabre DAC...second input is for my records...
My sub is an Energy I bought used for $100 🙂
I run my Lance's full out and my sub comes in about 80-90hz...I run high level but the sub has no outputs which is why this is hooked up the way it is...
For me to live with a speaker as long as I have done with this one is surprising...even my wife say so LOL!!!
If you're not thrilled...I would definitely try another type of amp...and secondly try the Lance build...I built the uFonken first...like you...but found the driver to be smoother and easier to blend in with the sub in the Lance...again...my little opinion 🙂
Hope this helps!!
Toodles!!
Attachments
OH...BTW...that forward sound...it might take some getting used too...its not for everybody...
For me that was the sound I was actually looking for...most speakers don't present vocals front and center like these little Fostex's do!!
Here is a pic of my living room where they are set up...definitely not ideal as I don't listen in the middle of the soundstage but I haven't really missed that like I've had with others...
My room also has a 50hz suckout that if I really wanted to...I would have to EQ that back in...but I don't really find the need to at the moment...
I guess it's all about what you want...so what do you want?? What do these things not do for you?? 😀
For me that was the sound I was actually looking for...most speakers don't present vocals front and center like these little Fostex's do!!
Here is a pic of my living room where they are set up...definitely not ideal as I don't listen in the middle of the soundstage but I haven't really missed that like I've had with others...
My room also has a 50hz suckout that if I really wanted to...I would have to EQ that back in...but I don't really find the need to at the moment...
I guess it's all about what you want...so what do you want?? What do these things not do for you?? 😀
Attachments
Hi ezas
If you have not corrected for baffle step, the vocals will be very forward. The FR plot shows a flat response but that is done on an IEC baffle (approx 1m x 1m). When the driver is in a box with a narrow width, the mids will be boosted by about 6dB.
You can try a 1mH with a 15 ohm/10W resistor in parallel. This will lower the "forwardness".
Since you are using Foobar, you can use the equalizer to give you an idea of how it can sound like. At 500Hz, gently slope down by -3dB to about 1.2kHz. Adjust all the frequencies after 1.2kHz to -3dB. This is an approximation of the passive shelving filter.
Regards
Mike
Attachments
+1 on the BSC or high shelf EQ to reduce forward sound.
@Sideways - the Danzz blue/black 3116 strikes again. I don't have the luck to have a class A amp and glad to hear that you think it approximates a class A amp sound. How cool is that for a $20 amp? We have been busy on the 3116 thread and have found a couple of cheap and easy mods for that board that will make it sound even better: Panasonic 330uF 25v SEPF OSCON caps, 330pF and 10R bootstrap snubbers, change bootstrap caps to ceramic (C0G or X7R). All very easy and under $10 total but makes it a completely better sounding amp. Love the cigar box!
The Lance looks like a nice box and anything you can listen to for a year is by definition great when you are a DIYer.
Cheers,
X
@Sideways - the Danzz blue/black 3116 strikes again. I don't have the luck to have a class A amp and glad to hear that you think it approximates a class A amp sound. How cool is that for a $20 amp? We have been busy on the 3116 thread and have found a couple of cheap and easy mods for that board that will make it sound even better: Panasonic 330uF 25v SEPF OSCON caps, 330pF and 10R bootstrap snubbers, change bootstrap caps to ceramic (C0G or X7R). All very easy and under $10 total but makes it a completely better sounding amp. Love the cigar box!
The Lance looks like a nice box and anything you can listen to for a year is by definition great when you are a DIYer.
Cheers,
X
You may find a shelving filter useful -however, if the enclosures are positioned rear a boundary wall, as the photograph suggests, you are unlikely to need a great deal to help with step-loss per se. What you simply may prefer is slightly more of a downward tilt in the response trend. So if you're running with the capacity for digital Eq, you can try gradually sloping off a couple of dB (total) from ~6KHz - 20KHz.
Last edited:
Ezas,
If you haven't tried this already, loosen the screws holding the driver to the cabinet and listen again.
When I built an mFonken using some iteration of the fostex 126, the back brace came out just a bit forward of where it should have been and I ended up screwing down the driver too tightly.
The speakers sounded ok, but the "magic" wasn't there. I took the advise of member contributors here, removed the driver, shaved the brace down just a bit and re-installed the driver…..this time without tightening much. This improved the sonics for me.
Mario
If you haven't tried this already, loosen the screws holding the driver to the cabinet and listen again.
When I built an mFonken using some iteration of the fostex 126, the back brace came out just a bit forward of where it should have been and I ended up screwing down the driver too tightly.
The speakers sounded ok, but the "magic" wasn't there. I took the advise of member contributors here, removed the driver, shaved the brace down just a bit and re-installed the driver…..this time without tightening much. This improved the sonics for me.
Mario
I'm also a member of the cheerleader squad for this little driver - indeed have built & used it at least 1/2 dozen different configurations of enclosures, with & without bass support.
Other than the normally expected excursion related limitations of a 3" "full-ranger" when not high-passed (maximum SPL, LF extenstion, etc) I personally can find not much wrong with them. It definitely has a more forward and dynamic upper midrange presentation than say an Alpair 6P, and I'd be judicious in application of EQ or BSC, lest some of its personality is lost.
In two separate computer desk top situations, I'm using the Topping TP30, which would appear to be the same as shown in one of the photos above. Nothing remarkable about this amp (good or bad) - for someone not incline to DIY an amp, it's a great value for such application. But you certainly could do better, such as the TPA3116 that xrk mentioned - considerably more power and definitely more refined and detailed - even a bone stock prebuilt unit like the Yuan Jing .
The 85WK is definitely capable of revealing quality of program material and all upstream components. Feed it analog vinyl or high res digital files, powered by a tube amp in the 12-25watt range (other folks will have their own recommendations of course) and you'll be asking yourself "is this the same driver?"
Other than the normally expected excursion related limitations of a 3" "full-ranger" when not high-passed (maximum SPL, LF extenstion, etc) I personally can find not much wrong with them. It definitely has a more forward and dynamic upper midrange presentation than say an Alpair 6P, and I'd be judicious in application of EQ or BSC, lest some of its personality is lost.
In two separate computer desk top situations, I'm using the Topping TP30, which would appear to be the same as shown in one of the photos above. Nothing remarkable about this amp (good or bad) - for someone not incline to DIY an amp, it's a great value for such application. But you certainly could do better, such as the TPA3116 that xrk mentioned - considerably more power and definitely more refined and detailed - even a bone stock prebuilt unit like the Yuan Jing .
The 85WK is definitely capable of revealing quality of program material and all upstream components. Feed it analog vinyl or high res digital files, powered by a tube amp in the 12-25watt range (other folks will have their own recommendations of course) and you'll be asking yourself "is this the same driver?"
+1 on the BSC filter. Narrow boxes always need BSC. Sort of +1 on the TDA3116. It does sound softer and rounder than the TA2022 that I have been using.
Bob
Bob
Excellent idea, I'll give it a try. Mine has a cardboard shim and would be too loose without it, Maybe I can double up on the gaskets. I'l cross that bridge when I come to it.
Me likeum Lance. Nice size for what I want. Anyone want to cut some lumber for me?
When I was first shopping for desktop speakers I think that was the amp that was coming highly recommended. I think there is a 2.1 version of this (pre built). I'll have to go back over some of my earlier posts to find the info.
I'm leery of trying to fix the speakers with an amp. Fine tune a sound I already like, yes. 'Fix' a speaker, not so much. But I'll look into the 3116. When I was putting this all together I was already making too many decision so went 'safe' and got the readily available topping which had pretty OK reviews.
In case anyone might need a nice easy to make sub that sounds great, look at the push-pull band pass design I made out of 1 in thick XPS foam and a couple of TB 5 in sub drivers. I am using them with my Vifa TC9FD DCR's right now with a TPA3116D2 2.1 amp and the whole setup integrates very well with some serious bass punch. The sub is described here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/258433-light-air-slot-loaded-band-pass-sub.html
I mention this sub because the FF85Wk is similar in size and usage compared with the TC9FD.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/258433-light-air-slot-loaded-band-pass-sub.html
I mention this sub because the FF85Wk is similar in size and usage compared with the TC9FD.
Worth reinterating. Screws should only be tightened to the point where they are just tight, more is to much.
dave
I am currently listening to our MTM with FF85wK and Silver Flute W14 (drivers are treated) as i do a 2nd attempt at getting a passive XO right. A very nice speaker.
The limitations of your system are the amp & any of the music files that are not full-rez FLAC.
dave
The limitations of your system are the amp & any of the music files that are not full-rez FLAC.
dave
Thanks I'll try the EQ to see what i think.
My understanding was that I didn't need to be worried about BSC for near field. But I was wondering about possible 'circuits' since I have seen people adding resistors before FR speakers.
The problem isn't to fix the speaker, but to get an amp where the speaker usn't revealing its shortcomings. Class D amps all have to have the switching frequency filtered out, how well they do that is in one measure how good they are. All of the Tripath amps i have heard (and earlier Class D amps) have an edge on them at the top that i attribute to not being completely successful filtering this HF grunge.
I haven't yet heard Chris' 3116 (or the 3110 i have here).
My main amp is a pretty special PP EL34 amp.
dave
Sigh . . . I hope that's not the case, it means we are spinning in two very different audio universes. If these are so revealing that a 320kb rip of at least an OK recording won't sound good then I'm in the wrong neighborhood. (I debate the ability to hear that level of 'detail' anyway, but that's another story).
Besides some stuff does sound good, even with my 192k Ogg rips.
The vast majority of listening on these speakers has been 320k to FLAC played through a clean signal chain as I explained, and more than a few remastered discs. Though a lot of times I think they just turn up the treble 😀 and call it remastered.
Expensive outboard gear aside (which I'm defining for myself as amp > $300 and equivalent DAC's, etc) it brings us full circle to my trying to qualify these speakers 3 months ago with little luck.
But back to tweaking, which is fun. If they are too revealing, too honest, I'll move on. I got high hopes for the loosening the screws. The cabinets creaked a bit when I backed them off and I'm going to do some listening in a little while. Fingers crossed
We are not at odds on this and we a dancing close to semantics. I don't mean it's a bad speaker that needs fixing. I mean not trying to turn a speaker that isn't what I want into something I do want when the money is better spent on finding a speaker closer to what you want. Don't anybody jump on me, these are words just to make a point. Why buy an amp to warm up cold speakers when there are warm speakers to be had?