This reminds me when I had a Pro-Ject table from a friend that came with a stock record clamp. Whenever the clamp was on I heard motor noise. No noise when I took it off. I came to the conclusion that the bearing shaft should NOT be machined with the spindle as one piece, as the bearing noise would travel all the way up to the spindle that touches the record. I understand it's cost saving for cheaper turntables but when it comes to "high-end" or cost is no object designs, I would prefer to have the spindle decoupled from the bearing.
Is the headstone inscribed 'RIP' - 'Rotate In Peace'?My Michel sits on a 45 kg Marble headstone (i.e. its what is used on graves)
ANY noise transmitted to the platter from the spindle bearing is a sign of poor manufacturing, plain and simple.
I can spin my Kenwood's platter by hand to wild RPM's - possibly 2 to 3 hundred RPM perhaps even faster, and putting my ear to the platter it's totally - totally silent spinning down.
So I know that at a mere 33 1/3 rpm I have no worries.
The spindle is micro-polished, as is the bearing well that it sits in, and rotates on a single ball bearing that sits on a tiny teflon disk.
A smear of Super Lube on the spindle, and a dollup of it down on the ball bearing insures it'll never wear in my lifetime.
Hi Bill,
I feel exactly the same way about that low capacitance cable crowd. Sometimes I had to replace the internal capacitors in the phono preamp with a smaller value to get down to the specified value. Most often it was adding capacitance (and improving the capacitor type). It really bugged me that they would blindly come across as a "mister-know-it-all", talk someone into expensive low capacitance cables without understanding the setup. Many turntables were physically damaged by making holes large enough for the cable. Many terminal boards broken from heavy gauge cables that moved during reassembly. That sometimes meant rewiring the tonearm and gluing the terminal back together, or coming up with a whole new plan.
Salesmen can't be trusted on average. The same goes for many service people who also don't have a good grip on physics.
-Chris
I feel exactly the same way about that low capacitance cable crowd. Sometimes I had to replace the internal capacitors in the phono preamp with a smaller value to get down to the specified value. Most often it was adding capacitance (and improving the capacitor type). It really bugged me that they would blindly come across as a "mister-know-it-all", talk someone into expensive low capacitance cables without understanding the setup. Many turntables were physically damaged by making holes large enough for the cable. Many terminal boards broken from heavy gauge cables that moved during reassembly. That sometimes meant rewiring the tonearm and gluing the terminal back together, or coming up with a whole new plan.
Salesmen can't be trusted on average. The same goes for many service people who also don't have a good grip on physics.
-Chris
I’ve only read the 1st post…
Back in the late 70s when i worked retail (back when the onslaught of DD tables came ou tof Japan) we had an entire row of turntables all set up with the same arm (Grace 707) and cartridge. Technics SP10, the big Denon and any number of lesser ones. And a range of belt drives including Connisour, Rea, ERA, LP12, and the cheap Pioneer belt drive. We did not sell any DDs (until the Kenwood KD500) because the belt-drives sounded better.
dave
Back in the late 70s when i worked retail (back when the onslaught of DD tables came ou tof Japan) we had an entire row of turntables all set up with the same arm (Grace 707) and cartridge. Technics SP10, the big Denon and any number of lesser ones. And a range of belt drives including Connisour, Rea, ERA, LP12, and the cheap Pioneer belt drive. We did not sell any DDs (until the Kenwood KD500) because the belt-drives sounded better.
dave
I'm curious, just what were the selling prices of the DD, compared to the belt drives?
And as much as a high quality turntable, properly set up, regardless of drive system, should be silent, how does one "sense" the differences and determine what "sounds" best.
Hi wiseoldtech,
Oh, now you`re getting into a very subjective area.
If the early DD turntables had light platters, I can see them being sensitive to acoustic sounds in the room. This would be worse if the test system was turned up a little, which they are almost always shown that way. Bearing noise would also be important as I don`t think the common DD tables had placed enough importance on that aspect. Certainly not the early ones I sold or examined on the service bench.
-Chris
Oh, now you`re getting into a very subjective area.
If the early DD turntables had light platters, I can see them being sensitive to acoustic sounds in the room. This would be worse if the test system was turned up a little, which they are almost always shown that way. Bearing noise would also be important as I don`t think the common DD tables had placed enough importance on that aspect. Certainly not the early ones I sold or examined on the service bench.
-Chris
In 1973, the brand new Dual 701's came out, their first offering of Direct Drive.
Prior to that, their line of automatic turntables were known for the attention to details - such as micro-polishing motor shafts with German engineering behind it.
In fact, in their advertising at the time, they even mentioned this special "micro-fine" polished motor shaft, making things as silent as possible.
So naturally, when that DD 701 came out, it too had the treatment, and ran silently.
The 701 that I recently overhauled for my neighbor, had a beautifully machined and polished shaft - I checked it under high magnification, and they did an excellent job of it.
My Kenwood DD also has a flawless spindle shaft, so I'm not surprised that it spins so utterly silent.
It's all in the details, all in the manufacturing process.
Hi. From what I've been reading in this debate, the opinion is divided over whether the sound heard on a belt drive turntable is better or not heard a direct drive turntable.
I see the example that Planet10 exposes.
It will not be that some brains of some people interpret as pleasant the mixture of the humm of the belt drive with the taxed music ?.
They are mysteries of the senses. Just as some like the salty and others like the sweet; others like music with humm in the background and others just music.
Now my view, using logic, would be comparable to direct drive in the presence or absence of humm, belt drive turntables where the engine is not attached to the plinth. Physically separated and only joined by the belt.
After starting this debate I have been reporting on the subject. And I have observed, for example, DIY works to get the humm out of a Rega planar 6 (around US $ 2000).
How much do you have to pay for a turntable belt drive to stop having humm ?.
regards
I see the example that Planet10 exposes.
It will not be that some brains of some people interpret as pleasant the mixture of the humm of the belt drive with the taxed music ?.
They are mysteries of the senses. Just as some like the salty and others like the sweet; others like music with humm in the background and others just music.
Now my view, using logic, would be comparable to direct drive in the presence or absence of humm, belt drive turntables where the engine is not attached to the plinth. Physically separated and only joined by the belt.
After starting this debate I have been reporting on the subject. And I have observed, for example, DIY works to get the humm out of a Rega planar 6 (around US $ 2000).
How much do you have to pay for a turntable belt drive to stop having humm ?.
regards
My previous Garrard 401 was silent enough for me, but my current Thorens 150, 160 and 125 decks are just as good.
This aspect however was not as important to me as the choice of arm, and the Rega 330 that I had last year was very disappointing compared with my SME 309, Hadcock GH228 and even my Thorens TP16. I had to send the REGA back twice, finally getting a refund after the dealer agreed with, because it's fixed azimuth was way out of line and could not therefore be set up accurately. The Hadcock on the Thorens 125 wins (just), but the SME on the 160 is easier to live with.
I got rid of the Garrard because the (sublime) 12" SME based tonearm made the deck huge and impractical for me to accommodate in the end.
This aspect however was not as important to me as the choice of arm, and the Rega 330 that I had last year was very disappointing compared with my SME 309, Hadcock GH228 and even my Thorens TP16. I had to send the REGA back twice, finally getting a refund after the dealer agreed with, because it's fixed azimuth was way out of line and could not therefore be set up accurately. The Hadcock on the Thorens 125 wins (just), but the SME on the 160 is easier to live with.
I got rid of the Garrard because the (sublime) 12" SME based tonearm made the deck huge and impractical for me to accommodate in the end.
I'd like to divide the opinion three ways and include idler drive as mentioned earlier.
And, yes, I find the almost subliminal rumble from my idler drive adds a degree of ambience when listening to the music - something that is missing when listening to the same recording on CD.
I think some of that is about.
It could be compared to the taste for vinyl on the cd.
The cd cuts the audio frequency to 20khz. However, many magnetic capsules exceed 25-50khz.
Although they are frequencies that are not audible directly, they are likely to "mix" with the audible frequencies, providing that nice touch that the vinyl has on the CD.
Also the surface noise of the vinyl, even if it is not heard, does something to please us.
We must recognize that we are "analog" beings, not digital.
In any case I prefer that if there is humm, it is not perceptible.
Since I can not buy a turntable belt drive from $ 2000 up, I prefer direct drives.
regards
It could be compared to the taste for vinyl on the cd.
The cd cuts the audio frequency to 20khz. However, many magnetic capsules exceed 25-50khz.
Although they are frequencies that are not audible directly, they are likely to "mix" with the audible frequencies, providing that nice touch that the vinyl has on the CD.
Also the surface noise of the vinyl, even if it is not heard, does something to please us.
We must recognize that we are "analog" beings, not digital.
In any case I prefer that if there is humm, it is not perceptible.
Since I can not buy a turntable belt drive from $ 2000 up, I prefer direct drives.
regards
Hi ALPUY,
You can stretch your buying dollar a lot farther by buying a used turntable and having it serviced by a good technician. This applies to both DD and belt drive systems. You can buy Thorens TD-125 MKII tables around here for a lot less than $1,000 that are in pristine condition. I imagine the other high end models are similar in price. It shouldn't be that much different in your part of the world.
If there is a common problem I've seen with DD drives, it is the thrust bearing system wearing, then wearing the drive or pick-up coils. It is a reasonably common problem with Japanese turntables, and even Dual. It only takes a small amount of wear to drop the platter so it can contact the pickup coil. So if you are going to buy a DD table, lift the platter up and look to see if there are any scratches or gouges. If you see those, I would pass on that table.
-Chris
You can stretch your buying dollar a lot farther by buying a used turntable and having it serviced by a good technician. This applies to both DD and belt drive systems. You can buy Thorens TD-125 MKII tables around here for a lot less than $1,000 that are in pristine condition. I imagine the other high end models are similar in price. It shouldn't be that much different in your part of the world.
If there is a common problem I've seen with DD drives, it is the thrust bearing system wearing, then wearing the drive or pick-up coils. It is a reasonably common problem with Japanese turntables, and even Dual. It only takes a small amount of wear to drop the platter so it can contact the pickup coil. So if you are going to buy a DD table, lift the platter up and look to see if there are any scratches or gouges. If you see those, I would pass on that table.
-Chris
Anatech, For these places in South America, if there are audio components of medium-high range, they are worth at least double that in North America or Europe.
The same thing happens if you want to buy it through Amazon or Ebay.
With the cost of shipping and customs taxes, far exceed those figures you mention.
With respect to my DD turntables, I have looked inside and for now I have not seen what you say.
The same thing happens if you want to buy it through Amazon or Ebay.
With the cost of shipping and customs taxes, far exceed those figures you mention.
With respect to my DD turntables, I have looked inside and for now I have not seen what you say.
Hi ALPUY,
-Chris
Perfect, be happy. Just keep that in mind when buying another one.
So, are the new tables the same price as a used one? If not, then my advice is still sound. You will save money buying a good used table and having it serviced over a new turntable. That's all I said. As for pricing, a TD-125 MKII in Canada can sell anywhere from $250 up to $800. Direct drive turntables as good probably sell for close to the same money.
-Chris
Anatech I will follow your advice. I will save and buy a Thorens TD-125 MKII turntable.
I give you an example of costs.
A turntable that in North America is worth US $ 500, has between shipping and customs taxes U $ S 390.
And it's a blind purchase, you just see the status of the turntable when you receive it.
But someday I will.
Thorens TD125 MKII turntable - get back to the 70'ties... | eBay
Vintage Thorens TD125 MKII Belt Drive & SME 3009 w/ Plinth Manuals & Extra | eBay
!!!!!!!!! $$$$$$
I give you an example of costs.
A turntable that in North America is worth US $ 500, has between shipping and customs taxes U $ S 390.
And it's a blind purchase, you just see the status of the turntable when you receive it.
But someday I will.
Thorens TD125 MKII turntable - get back to the 70'ties... | eBay
Vintage Thorens TD125 MKII Belt Drive & SME 3009 w/ Plinth Manuals & Extra | eBay
!!!!!!!!! $$$$$$
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Hi ALPUY,
The first one isn't a TD-125 MKII. It is completely reworked. As nice as that one looks, I wouldn't buy it even if I had the money. It's performance can't be much better than a stock TD-125 MKII.
The second table is what they look like normally. I would go with the factory arm. Note that some Ortofon cartridges go for $1 K up here. I was talking about a table with the Thorens arm and no cartridge so you could use your own. If there is anything you should buy new, it would be the cartridge.
Here is something more in the range, with cartridge : Thorens TD-125 MK II MKII Turntable with Shure V15 Type III VN35MR | eBay
I didn't know my table was worth that much! If you keep watching, you will eventually see these for sane prices. Unless their prices go as nutty as Marantz equipment!
-Chris
The first one isn't a TD-125 MKII. It is completely reworked. As nice as that one looks, I wouldn't buy it even if I had the money. It's performance can't be much better than a stock TD-125 MKII.
The second table is what they look like normally. I would go with the factory arm. Note that some Ortofon cartridges go for $1 K up here. I was talking about a table with the Thorens arm and no cartridge so you could use your own. If there is anything you should buy new, it would be the cartridge.
Here is something more in the range, with cartridge : Thorens TD-125 MK II MKII Turntable with Shure V15 Type III VN35MR | eBay
I didn't know my table was worth that much! If you keep watching, you will eventually see these for sane prices. Unless their prices go as nutty as Marantz equipment!
-Chris