A TT needs to do considerably more than that, it is very naive to think it only needs to do that.
dave
Hi Mogster44,
Well, no. The TD-125 MKII has the better bearing. I've had both. The TD-160 super and special editions do have the better bearing.
-Chris
Well ... usually only once. Mine has been fine since I repaired it over 30 years ago.
.
Well, no. The TD-125 MKII has the better bearing. I've had both. The TD-160 super and special editions do have the better bearing.
Well, okay. However, the Thorens products got better with time, meaning the newer tables are better than the old ones. I'm going to allow that the TD-124 is among those great tables only because we have many passionate owners of the TD-124. It is different than the belt drive tables, so who am I to judge them.
-Chris
Two feet of 32AWG stranded amount to about 0.25 ohms, if even that.
Hardly anything to quibble about when the average cartridge weighs in at 400 to 1200 ohms, and yes, that 47K loading of the preamp.
I don't recommend anyone messing with tone arm wiring "if it ain't broke" - yet there are nuts that insist on playing around.
I don't think it should make any difference, however the better separation of the wires, and lower static electricity will be audible,
it depends, does the friction loads the tonearm with statics? if yes, any variation in the static field will be picked up by the wires inside the tonearm...
I think this is the concern there, speaking of which each turn table has its problems...
I like a lot the dynavector cartridges!
we can draw a parallel with DHT / DD / belt...
I can separate people in 4 camps: DHT with DHT drivers only, 0 feedback, DHT output, SET , push pull pentodes.
Well, how is it possible to drive accurately a driver with 20 watts without any feedback from a big DHT, I have no clue, people are looking for pleasant harmonics to enhance their audio experience, they are convinced ! that the DHT sound way better than any tube Because it has those linear curves like the 300B and the heater is direct...
2 things can be observed, first, a good pentode correctly set to triode mode can show a low THD pattern, for example the ECC99, EL34 to some extend driven by transformers. Secondly, the lack of feedback means that every single problems with the capacitors, tubes, transformers, will be heard through the output with a great coloration of the sound.
I am a little bit in the camp of wiseoldtech, as long as it turns to proper speed, has low noise / low flutter , low wow, then it is a matter of personal bias. In a good audio system you can plug crappy sources and it will sound phenomenally good (maybe tiresome).
In perspective, the ortophon cadenze, (not a fan!) have around 2% or more harmonics, so be happy with what you have, sources are fine.
it depends, does the friction loads the tonearm with statics? if yes, any variation in the static field will be picked up by the wires inside the tonearm...
I think this is the concern there, speaking of which each turn table has its problems...
I like a lot the dynavector cartridges!
we can draw a parallel with DHT / DD / belt...
I can separate people in 4 camps: DHT with DHT drivers only, 0 feedback, DHT output, SET , push pull pentodes.
Well, how is it possible to drive accurately a driver with 20 watts without any feedback from a big DHT, I have no clue, people are looking for pleasant harmonics to enhance their audio experience, they are convinced ! that the DHT sound way better than any tube Because it has those linear curves like the 300B and the heater is direct...
2 things can be observed, first, a good pentode correctly set to triode mode can show a low THD pattern, for example the ECC99, EL34 to some extend driven by transformers. Secondly, the lack of feedback means that every single problems with the capacitors, tubes, transformers, will be heard through the output with a great coloration of the sound.
I am a little bit in the camp of wiseoldtech, as long as it turns to proper speed, has low noise / low flutter , low wow, then it is a matter of personal bias. In a good audio system you can plug crappy sources and it will sound phenomenally good (maybe tiresome).
In perspective, the ortophon cadenze, (not a fan!) have around 2% or more harmonics, so be happy with what you have, sources are fine.
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Hi Anatech,
Following your reply to my offerings, I went to the "Thorens History" page at Thorens History, to check against my comments.
Going by this, whereas I was sure that I had read somewhere that the TD 160MK1 had a larger platter bearing than the MK2, if appears that I was wrong! However, according to the above link, the TD 125 of 1968 had the same bearing as the TD150, as did the TD160 0f 1972. What's more, the TD160 super had the same bearings as the TD160MK2. It was the TD165 that had the smaller bearing.
I agree that the TD125 MK2 has the better build and specification, I just don't find it sounds better than my TD150Mk2 or my TD160MK2. It is however easier and very nice to use.
I've considered buying a TD160 super, but am not convinced it adds anything more than the mods that most of us could add without the price tag. I've tried them all with various arms over the years and think that sometimes we accept over-sophistication as improvements ! To add further fuel to the fire, I sold my Linn Sondek LP12 + Ittok, because the TD150 MK2 with my Hadcock 242 sounded better to my ears. I wish I had kept that arm !!
Regards,
Richard
Following your reply to my offerings, I went to the "Thorens History" page at Thorens History, to check against my comments.
Going by this, whereas I was sure that I had read somewhere that the TD 160MK1 had a larger platter bearing than the MK2, if appears that I was wrong! However, according to the above link, the TD 125 of 1968 had the same bearing as the TD150, as did the TD160 0f 1972. What's more, the TD160 super had the same bearings as the TD160MK2. It was the TD165 that had the smaller bearing.
I agree that the TD125 MK2 has the better build and specification, I just don't find it sounds better than my TD150Mk2 or my TD160MK2. It is however easier and very nice to use.
I've considered buying a TD160 super, but am not convinced it adds anything more than the mods that most of us could add without the price tag. I've tried them all with various arms over the years and think that sometimes we accept over-sophistication as improvements ! To add further fuel to the fire, I sold my Linn Sondek LP12 + Ittok, because the TD150 MK2 with my Hadcock 242 sounded better to my ears. I wish I had kept that arm !!
Regards,
Richard
wiseoldtech,
it's 'accepted wisdom' that Litz wire is the best for tonearms - just how many decades old is that mantra. The KD series decks, designed from the ground up don't have Litz wiring, it's solid core silver. Not for cheapness but because it's a good idea the tonearm wiring and the 2 earth wires are soldered to a piece of tagboard fixed to the spider alu chassis just a few inches from exiting the arm, simple and effective.
Back in the day when I wasted good money on the hyped up Rega 2 & 3 decks, the one good thing about the 250 and 300 arms was that it was easy to use the existing crappy wiring as draw wires for new cabling, that was their only good point. I even used wrapping wire and it sounded better than the original.
I've done the actual work on i/cs and for me using over sized FEP (not Teflon) tubing allows more of the signal to pass through or maybe the signal is less corrupted, whatever there is 'more music'.
If this is so with i/cs then it's a no brainer to use continuity of materials and construction right from the source.
Tonearm wiring in conventional arms has to travel through a tube, potentially a great echo/resonance/vibration chamber even if the material is aluminium. I hate to think how a tensile material like steel has far more potential to interfere with signal transmission.
So with conventional wire, Litz or solid core tightly wrapped in whatever jacket/dialectric material used will, in many places be actually touching the tube wall. This must affect the signal transmission.
The usual dialectric materials used don't do their job well aka they will transfer any 'interference' directly into the conductor material. Over sized tubing acts directly as a buffer and air becomes the dialectric. Of course there will be contact between the tubing in some places, as a percentage of the total run it will not be much but FEP has excellent dialectric properties.
Wiseoldtech - nothing I have outlined is nutty, it is all based on stone cold science. Oliver Heaviside laid out the facts about electrical conduction and that was well before the end of the 19th century - the audio world has relentlessly refused to accept this.
Just look at RCA and XLR plugs, in terms of basic physics they are a joke that has gone unchallenged for far too long.
The electronically generated musical signal should be treated with extreme care and anything that will degrade/corrupt it should be eliminated from it's path. The reality is it is treated as unimportant - an afterthought.
it's 'accepted wisdom' that Litz wire is the best for tonearms - just how many decades old is that mantra. The KD series decks, designed from the ground up don't have Litz wiring, it's solid core silver. Not for cheapness but because it's a good idea the tonearm wiring and the 2 earth wires are soldered to a piece of tagboard fixed to the spider alu chassis just a few inches from exiting the arm, simple and effective.
Back in the day when I wasted good money on the hyped up Rega 2 & 3 decks, the one good thing about the 250 and 300 arms was that it was easy to use the existing crappy wiring as draw wires for new cabling, that was their only good point. I even used wrapping wire and it sounded better than the original.
I've done the actual work on i/cs and for me using over sized FEP (not Teflon) tubing allows more of the signal to pass through or maybe the signal is less corrupted, whatever there is 'more music'.
If this is so with i/cs then it's a no brainer to use continuity of materials and construction right from the source.
Tonearm wiring in conventional arms has to travel through a tube, potentially a great echo/resonance/vibration chamber even if the material is aluminium. I hate to think how a tensile material like steel has far more potential to interfere with signal transmission.
So with conventional wire, Litz or solid core tightly wrapped in whatever jacket/dialectric material used will, in many places be actually touching the tube wall. This must affect the signal transmission.
The usual dialectric materials used don't do their job well aka they will transfer any 'interference' directly into the conductor material. Over sized tubing acts directly as a buffer and air becomes the dialectric. Of course there will be contact between the tubing in some places, as a percentage of the total run it will not be much but FEP has excellent dialectric properties.
Wiseoldtech - nothing I have outlined is nutty, it is all based on stone cold science. Oliver Heaviside laid out the facts about electrical conduction and that was well before the end of the 19th century - the audio world has relentlessly refused to accept this.
Just look at RCA and XLR plugs, in terms of basic physics they are a joke that has gone unchallenged for far too long.
The electronically generated musical signal should be treated with extreme care and anything that will degrade/corrupt it should be eliminated from it's path. The reality is it is treated as unimportant - an afterthought.
An audio signal in the "millivolt" range traveling through fine wires "for a short distance" - from the cartridge through the tonearm, up to the output terminals of a turntable - is in reality not an issue, as long as there's no interference imposed upon that signal.
Those interferences would include compromised insulation of the wire (shorts), extreme magnetic forces (being right next to a transformer, heavy current wiring, or motor), and poor connections at the terminations of the wire.
Proper, sensible routing of the wiring is of course common sense, and something taken into consideration by knowledgable assemblers.
However, the "nitpicking" and obsessiveness of some have created a new set of requirements for some fantasy problems, mostly making others paranoid and instilling fears of things that don't exist - in other words, making people nuts over nothings.
To put these "fears" to rest, tests were done in a laboratory, of turntables with the cartridge output of signal tones of various frequencies.
Different wiring was used for the cartridge, plain poly-vinyl coated copper, silver-coated, litz, shielded, twisted pairs, silicone covered, etc.
And inside metal tonearms, and plastic as well.
The differences were deemed as "really nothing to care or worry about" by the lab
Yet, the ongoing discussions of "horrors" continue to circulate.
Mainly by cable manufacturers intent on selling "special wiring"- marketing hype.
And this talk will certainly continue, ad-nauseam.
Those interferences would include compromised insulation of the wire (shorts), extreme magnetic forces (being right next to a transformer, heavy current wiring, or motor), and poor connections at the terminations of the wire.
Proper, sensible routing of the wiring is of course common sense, and something taken into consideration by knowledgable assemblers.
However, the "nitpicking" and obsessiveness of some have created a new set of requirements for some fantasy problems, mostly making others paranoid and instilling fears of things that don't exist - in other words, making people nuts over nothings.
To put these "fears" to rest, tests were done in a laboratory, of turntables with the cartridge output of signal tones of various frequencies.
Different wiring was used for the cartridge, plain poly-vinyl coated copper, silver-coated, litz, shielded, twisted pairs, silicone covered, etc.
And inside metal tonearms, and plastic as well.
The differences were deemed as "really nothing to care or worry about" by the lab
Yet, the ongoing discussions of "horrors" continue to circulate.
Mainly by cable manufacturers intent on selling "special wiring"- marketing hype.
And this talk will certainly continue, ad-nauseam.
Well, had I deemed the results that I found at the time some important reason to save or bookmark, I'd gladly share with the public, had I known at the time that anyone would question me.
And I, as a long-time service tech, and a lover of all things audio, including being "picky" of my equipment, know quite well the "laws" of electronics, its fundamentals, and its potential issues.
But I don't allow myself to indulge in something generated and spread as "truths" when I surely know better.
Reading this last intervention, my case comes to mind.
I bought Van den hul cs122 cables to bi cable my B & W DM602; Van den hul The Isis for my turntables, following the concept of "better cable, better sound".
My son, electronic and systems engineer, what he does is laugh at the falseness of these cables.
I think he's right and I've wasted the money. But I know it has a psychological effect.
With what I've spent on cables, it has to sound good. Laughter
I bought Van den hul cs122 cables to bi cable my B & W DM602; Van den hul The Isis for my turntables, following the concept of "better cable, better sound".
My son, electronic and systems engineer, what he does is laugh at the falseness of these cables.
I think he's right and I've wasted the money. But I know it has a psychological effect.
With what I've spent on cables, it has to sound good. Laughter
Hi Richard,
I'll agree with you on your observation and experience. I do like the TD-125MKII more than the TD-160. My mother still has a TD-160 in fact. I did find a turntable that I like better than the TD-125MKII. It is the TD-126MKII. I really like the low mass tonearm, and the auto-lift at the end of an album is a great feature. We used a "Q-up" on my mother's TD-160. One thing I love about the TD-126MKII are the electronic controls and lit buttons. The colour scheme is nicer as well. These things do not affect the sound quality at all, but they do prevent someone from being heavy handed with the controls.
I just received my new "Way Excellent II" turntable mat (4mm) in the mail. Looking forward to testing it out.
-Chris
I'll agree with you on your observation and experience. I do like the TD-125MKII more than the TD-160. My mother still has a TD-160 in fact. I did find a turntable that I like better than the TD-125MKII. It is the TD-126MKII. I really like the low mass tonearm, and the auto-lift at the end of an album is a great feature. We used a "Q-up" on my mother's TD-160. One thing I love about the TD-126MKII are the electronic controls and lit buttons. The colour scheme is nicer as well. These things do not affect the sound quality at all, but they do prevent someone from being heavy handed with the controls.
I just received my new "Way Excellent II" turntable mat (4mm) in the mail. Looking forward to testing it out.
-Chris
Hi Jeff,
Thorens TD-126MKII with the suspension upgraded with Linn parts by the best turntable tech I have ever seen in 40+ years. It has the original arm and the VTA is set up for the Platter Matter. I have an Ortofon 540 MKII cartridge mounted with very, very few hours on it. That same tech set up the cartridge, (Gary ... RIP
). He really likes the Thorens factory arms and tables. Mine were the first ones he had ever serviced in any detail. I gave him my TD-125MKII and a TD-145MKII to do at the same time.
The TD-125MKII is also set for a Platter Matter as I have two of them. It has an Ortofon VMS-30E MKII mounted and set up by Gary. He really liked that arm as well. That cartridge has a stylus about 50% worn according to Gary. I'll believe him since that one has been with me since about 1978. The TD-145MKII was a table I picked up with the TD-126MKII. Package deal. They all got the same upgrade. It's quite telling that the Linn LP-12 suspension parts fit the Thorens suspension perfectly after trimming the dampers and mounting them upside down. My personal estimation is that they greatly improved the sprung suspension in those three tables.
Whatever mat is the best will live on both tables. I think the inexpensive silicone-rubber mat will live on the TD-145MKII, or I'll sell it with the factory mat.
-Chris
Thorens TD-126MKII with the suspension upgraded with Linn parts by the best turntable tech I have ever seen in 40+ years. It has the original arm and the VTA is set up for the Platter Matter. I have an Ortofon 540 MKII cartridge mounted with very, very few hours on it. That same tech set up the cartridge, (Gary ... RIP
). He really likes the Thorens factory arms and tables. Mine were the first ones he had ever serviced in any detail. I gave him my TD-125MKII and a TD-145MKII to do at the same time.The TD-125MKII is also set for a Platter Matter as I have two of them. It has an Ortofon VMS-30E MKII mounted and set up by Gary. He really liked that arm as well. That cartridge has a stylus about 50% worn according to Gary. I'll believe him since that one has been with me since about 1978. The TD-145MKII was a table I picked up with the TD-126MKII. Package deal. They all got the same upgrade. It's quite telling that the Linn LP-12 suspension parts fit the Thorens suspension perfectly after trimming the dampers and mounting them upside down. My personal estimation is that they greatly improved the sprung suspension in those three tables.
Whatever mat is the best will live on both tables. I think the inexpensive silicone-rubber mat will live on the TD-145MKII, or I'll sell it with the factory mat.
-Chris
if the wires just move slightly from one another it is going in the amplifier.
the 47k is a loading resistor, it is not opposing the signal, quite contrary, the higher the easier for the signal.
at 5mv max we are talking about some fine detail in the music at 0.5mv and less, anything in a wire can produce 0.1mv, heating the wire produce a voltage because of thermocouple effects, I am sure there are similar effects...
a rotating platter with a needle is like a van-der-graff machine, the arm needs to be grounded OR the wires will catch a very high static noise of a few mv !
I believe wires are super important when dealing with mV , with the input stage which can saturate too.
the 47k is a loading resistor, it is not opposing the signal, quite contrary, the higher the easier for the signal.
at 5mv max we are talking about some fine detail in the music at 0.5mv and less, anything in a wire can produce 0.1mv, heating the wire produce a voltage because of thermocouple effects, I am sure there are similar effects...
a rotating platter with a needle is like a van-der-graff machine, the arm needs to be grounded OR the wires will catch a very high static noise of a few mv !
I believe wires are super important when dealing with mV , with the input stage which can saturate too.
Hi gabdx,
Well, I work with thermocouples and those voltages are in nV near 0°C, depending on the conductors. Speaking of wire, guess what wire is used for connections and extensions if you don't use the same wire as the thermocouple element? Copper, period.
So if you are in fact worried about thermocouple effects (which would be DC by the way), you will use copper, not any of the silver or other wire. Likewise, you could use telephone wire for this (except it is too stiff) because the insulation is Teflon or other low K insulators.
All you need here is copper wire insulated by whatever they are using on half decent wire. As far as movement is concerned, it is a very slow twisting and slight deviation from a relaxed position. That is lower than infrasonic so you will not hear it- ever.
So faced with unhappy situation where the cartridge is wound with something exotic, you need to do two things. Look at a table of contact emf between dissimilar metals. Then understand that the cartridge maker either doesn't understand things like this, or is callously forgoing performance for advertising "wow".
Hi Black Stuart,
Litz wire has every strand insulted, so it represents the least conductor per cross-sectional area. So higher resistance given equivalent cable O.D. It doesn't buy you anything at all at low frequencies, which is anything below radio frequencies. Every area of study has their nut jobs, and you seem to have found some wherever your source for that information is. Most of the other information you should consider is in my reply to gabdx.
My first hand information comes from my time working in a calibration laboratory for electronic test equipment, and university courses. Our calibration was traceable to NIST in the 'States in case you're wondering if that lab was for real. Actual continuous study is required in that job too.
Crack some science and electronics text books in order to figure out what the truth in these matters is. Some information from Omega (temperature oriented company) would be especially valuable to you. They have free downloads of material written by engineers and scientists. A solid source of true data.
-Chris
Well, I work with thermocouples and those voltages are in nV near 0°C, depending on the conductors. Speaking of wire, guess what wire is used for connections and extensions if you don't use the same wire as the thermocouple element? Copper, period.
So if you are in fact worried about thermocouple effects (which would be DC by the way), you will use copper, not any of the silver or other wire. Likewise, you could use telephone wire for this (except it is too stiff) because the insulation is Teflon or other low K insulators.
All you need here is copper wire insulated by whatever they are using on half decent wire. As far as movement is concerned, it is a very slow twisting and slight deviation from a relaxed position. That is lower than infrasonic so you will not hear it- ever.
So faced with unhappy situation where the cartridge is wound with something exotic, you need to do two things. Look at a table of contact emf between dissimilar metals. Then understand that the cartridge maker either doesn't understand things like this, or is callously forgoing performance for advertising "wow".
Hi Black Stuart,
Say what??? Since when and by whom?
Litz wire has every strand insulted, so it represents the least conductor per cross-sectional area. So higher resistance given equivalent cable O.D. It doesn't buy you anything at all at low frequencies, which is anything below radio frequencies. Every area of study has their nut jobs, and you seem to have found some wherever your source for that information is. Most of the other information you should consider is in my reply to gabdx.
My first hand information comes from my time working in a calibration laboratory for electronic test equipment, and university courses. Our calibration was traceable to NIST in the 'States in case you're wondering if that lab was for real. Actual continuous study is required in that job too.
Crack some science and electronics text books in order to figure out what the truth in these matters is. Some information from Omega (temperature oriented company) would be especially valuable to you. They have free downloads of material written by engineers and scientists. A solid source of true data.
-Chris
I have to agree basically with Chris, because obsessing over wiring and any miniscule irregularities is best for an insane asylum resident, not "normal people.
It's known as "nit picking", and usually is nothing there, nothing wrong, yet some people insist they can argue upon it till the cows come home.
I've no time for all that, and as Chris stated, good ole copper wiring when properly used and installed, is a done deal.
It's known as "nit picking", and usually is nothing there, nothing wrong, yet some people insist they can argue upon it till the cows come home.
I've no time for all that, and as Chris stated, good ole copper wiring when properly used and installed, is a done deal.
wiseoldtech,
all your examples are with wire tightly wrapped in dialectric and all these tests were carried out decades ago. You havn't quoted any examples using air cored wiring which you seem oblivious of.
I quote Oliver Heavisides findings which remain extant today - electricity travels not only through a conductor but on and and around the conductor.
You do seem trapped in the past which is a shame as your posts about d/d decks are spot on. However particle physics escapes you completely, as this science does with most of the audio community.
The most important part of any audio system is the transmission of the electronically generated musical signal. Completely irrelevant is the use of either ss or valve amplification.
The audio world needs to get it's **** into gear about basic science because it is a joke compared to the computer world which is open minded and not trapped in sclerotic thinking from decades ago.
Please reply with logical scientific argument ,not irrational abusive statements - over to you.
all your examples are with wire tightly wrapped in dialectric and all these tests were carried out decades ago. You havn't quoted any examples using air cored wiring which you seem oblivious of.
I quote Oliver Heavisides findings which remain extant today - electricity travels not only through a conductor but on and and around the conductor.
You do seem trapped in the past which is a shame as your posts about d/d decks are spot on. However particle physics escapes you completely, as this science does with most of the audio community.
The most important part of any audio system is the transmission of the electronically generated musical signal. Completely irrelevant is the use of either ss or valve amplification.
The audio world needs to get it's **** into gear about basic science because it is a joke compared to the computer world which is open minded and not trapped in sclerotic thinking from decades ago.
Please reply with logical scientific argument ,not irrational abusive statements - over to you.
Hi Black Stuart,
Interesting comments. My education included atomic physics so we understood what was going on in various semiconductors, insulators and conductors. My further training in Metrology extended my understanding of these things. I would consider a trained technician to have an excellent grasp on the science behind electronics.
You may understand particle physics, but worrying about air cored wiring isn't something we do at base band frequencies. Don't get confused by extending your requirements up into bands that we don't deal with in audio. Now personally, I define audio frequencies as those from DC (0 Hz) to about 1 MHz.
One comparison I found particularly insulting was the comparison for this industry to the computer world. I have always found a complete lack of understanding of basic physics and electronics to be the norm, however there is a persistent belief in that industry that they understand electronics completely. Some of my worst customers and most complete damage are computer people generated. They don't know when to stop as a rule and are generally quite mystified when things don't go as they planned. Yet they are still unwilling to concede that others may know more about electronics than they do.
I also worked as a Telecom technician for 16 years. I was certified in VoIP in 2004 and to this day run into computer people who completely ball up a phone system installation because they do not understand the basics of communication or how people tend to think. They generally would treat telephone techs with disdain, that is until we fix their network issues.
If any profession is wearing blinders, it would be the happy folks that work in the computer world. Besides, why do they even need to know physics? None of the people I know in the computer world have taken real engineering courses, or psychology for that matter. What they have taken was computer science, and that isn't even close to the same thing.
Now I'm not saying that computer people are idiots, or slow in any way. They do tend to be aloof and unwilling to consider other specialties might know a thing or two that they don't. They especially do not consider technicians as skilled people when they really ought to. The most dangerous situation I can think of is a computer world person with a hot soldering iron. Often the results are not pretty, and I'm not talking just about the appearance of their solder joints.
-Chris
Interesting comments. My education included atomic physics so we understood what was going on in various semiconductors, insulators and conductors. My further training in Metrology extended my understanding of these things. I would consider a trained technician to have an excellent grasp on the science behind electronics.
You may understand particle physics, but worrying about air cored wiring isn't something we do at base band frequencies. Don't get confused by extending your requirements up into bands that we don't deal with in audio. Now personally, I define audio frequencies as those from DC (0 Hz) to about 1 MHz.
One comparison I found particularly insulting was the comparison for this industry to the computer world. I have always found a complete lack of understanding of basic physics and electronics to be the norm, however there is a persistent belief in that industry that they understand electronics completely. Some of my worst customers and most complete damage are computer people generated. They don't know when to stop as a rule and are generally quite mystified when things don't go as they planned. Yet they are still unwilling to concede that others may know more about electronics than they do.
I also worked as a Telecom technician for 16 years. I was certified in VoIP in 2004 and to this day run into computer people who completely ball up a phone system installation because they do not understand the basics of communication or how people tend to think. They generally would treat telephone techs with disdain, that is until we fix their network issues.
If any profession is wearing blinders, it would be the happy folks that work in the computer world. Besides, why do they even need to know physics? None of the people I know in the computer world have taken real engineering courses, or psychology for that matter. What they have taken was computer science, and that isn't even close to the same thing.
Now I'm not saying that computer people are idiots, or slow in any way. They do tend to be aloof and unwilling to consider other specialties might know a thing or two that they don't. They especially do not consider technicians as skilled people when they really ought to. The most dangerous situation I can think of is a computer world person with a hot soldering iron. Often the results are not pretty, and I'm not talking just about the appearance of their solder joints.
-Chris