Hi wiseoldtech,
Selling stereo in the same era. Did you have the tape that had a motorcycle running in circles around the listeners?
Quad made a mess out of the listening rooms. Stereo was bad enough, but to have two speaker/amp selector boxes and being surrounded with piles of speakers really freaked out some folks.
As far as tracking force was concerned, a 2 gram force was enough to keep the stylus from riding up in the grooves and making a mess of things. Below 2 grams things got progressively more difficult as far as external vibration was concerned. Much above 3 grams and you were getting close to bottoming some cartridges out. We had all the popular cartridge brands. The Ortofon brand was probably more popular being picked for sound quality. Sure was a price thing while still getting some quality, as was Audio Technica. Pickering had a very good name back then, as did Stanton. Later in the decade, the one brand that sticks out for light tracking was AKG. Ortofon has always been in the 1.5 ~ 2 gram range.
At a tracking force of 5 grams, I would think you would be flattening out a lot of fine detail that we can't hear anymore at our ages. So while they may sound fine to you today, if you listened to some in that condition back in the 70's, you would have noticed the missing detail. Worst case would be 5 grams on a conical stylus. The tip temperature would have probably been high enough to melt vinyl.
-Chris
Selling stereo in the same era. Did you have the tape that had a motorcycle running in circles around the listeners?
Quad made a mess out of the listening rooms. Stereo was bad enough, but to have two speaker/amp selector boxes and being surrounded with piles of speakers really freaked out some folks.
As far as tracking force was concerned, a 2 gram force was enough to keep the stylus from riding up in the grooves and making a mess of things. Below 2 grams things got progressively more difficult as far as external vibration was concerned. Much above 3 grams and you were getting close to bottoming some cartridges out. We had all the popular cartridge brands. The Ortofon brand was probably more popular being picked for sound quality. Sure was a price thing while still getting some quality, as was Audio Technica. Pickering had a very good name back then, as did Stanton. Later in the decade, the one brand that sticks out for light tracking was AKG. Ortofon has always been in the 1.5 ~ 2 gram range.
At a tracking force of 5 grams, I would think you would be flattening out a lot of fine detail that we can't hear anymore at our ages. So while they may sound fine to you today, if you listened to some in that condition back in the 70's, you would have noticed the missing detail. Worst case would be 5 grams on a conical stylus. The tip temperature would have probably been high enough to melt vinyl.
-Chris
You look at the stuff people are doing on ambience on here and there is still an interest. The problem is it only works on certain programme. But Hafler surround never really caught on...
You surprise me Chris!
I now wish I hadn't thrown an unused factory built unit into the bin some years back!
The attached circuit shows how to produce 'surround sound' on the cheap. Note that the two amplifier channels must share a common ground.
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wiseoldtech,
I don 't think you are giving a fair evaluation of the top of the liner Stanton/Pickering cartridges. The fact that their topline products track at light weights is a small part of the benefits. They do combine the best of MM and MC.
There is an awful lot of b/s with hugely expensive MCs - if it's very expensive aka it must be good. Quality control can and is very variable with MCs which is what put me off for years trying one. The AT ART 9 has just this problem. If we didn't get screwed on this side of the Atlantic I would try a Soundsmith Zephyr - stylus replacement 20% of the purchase price, now that is a good deal.
billshurv - is €800-900 really beyond your purse? that's what a KD 990 will cost you and that includes a very good gimbal arm that is a doddle to set up. Oh yes and it looks good - real eye candy.
I don 't think you are giving a fair evaluation of the top of the liner Stanton/Pickering cartridges. The fact that their topline products track at light weights is a small part of the benefits. They do combine the best of MM and MC.
There is an awful lot of b/s with hugely expensive MCs - if it's very expensive aka it must be good. Quality control can and is very variable with MCs which is what put me off for years trying one. The AT ART 9 has just this problem. If we didn't get screwed on this side of the Atlantic I would try a Soundsmith Zephyr - stylus replacement 20% of the purchase price, now that is a good deal.
billshurv - is €800-900 really beyond your purse? that's what a KD 990 will cost you and that includes a very good gimbal arm that is a doddle to set up. Oh yes and it looks good - real eye candy.
Soundsmith Zephyr is just a B&O cart in a fancy skirt. Why not stick with the original 
It's not the €900 (although I don't have that). It's the ensuing grief and having to sell one of my other tables, both of which have considerable emotional ties as I've known one of them since I was 10 and the other was my 21st birthday present. I could only have a 3rd turntable if we had a big enough house. so it would cost me about 100k to have a 990 in the collection
Shown is the space I have for the hifi. All self inflicted I have to admit.
It's not the €900 (although I don't have that). It's the ensuing grief and having to sell one of my other tables, both of which have considerable emotional ties as I've known one of them since I was 10 and the other was my 21st birthday present. I could only have a 3rd turntable if we had a big enough house. so it would cost me about 100k to have a 990 in the collection
Shown is the space I have for the hifi. All self inflicted I have to admit.
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Lightweight/super tracking certainly was a thing in the 70's. Everyone wanted to track the cannon fire in the 1812 overture. That's when the compliance race took off, with cartridges from ADC, Sonus, Shure.
The SME III arm was designed specifically for a high compliance cartridge, namely the Shure V15 type III.. The competing tonearms were the infinity black widow, Grace 707, Mayware formula IV. I owned all but the Grace. ( and not the Hadcock either ).
My pal was using an ADC XLM on a Vestigial tonearm. The vestigial boasted that tracking forces as low as 0.1 gm were possible.
Then along came the Japanese with the Dynavector 505 and the Fidelity Reasearch FR-64s using very low compliance moving coil cartridges.....which was another "thing".
The SME III arm was designed specifically for a high compliance cartridge, namely the Shure V15 type III.. The competing tonearms were the infinity black widow, Grace 707, Mayware formula IV. I owned all but the Grace. ( and not the Hadcock either ).
My pal was using an ADC XLM on a Vestigial tonearm. The vestigial boasted that tracking forces as low as 0.1 gm were possible.
Then along came the Japanese with the Dynavector 505 and the Fidelity Reasearch FR-64s using very low compliance moving coil cartridges.....which was another "thing".
I think you mean V15 type IV? I have two SME arms, a Series 3 and a 309. I reckon I have most sane bases covered for effective mass . I also have the 30H armwand for the series 3. 4.5g effective mass including the cartridge.
Personally I think most modern cartridges are still too high compliance for modern arms, but that is entirely my view and I don't expect this to be shared by many!
. I also have the 30H armwand for the series 3. 4.5g effective mass including the cartridge. Personally I think most modern cartridges are still too high compliance for modern arms, but that is entirely my view and I don't expect this to be shared by many!
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Hi Galu,
The customer is picking up all his Pioneer stuff this weekend. I'll not be sorry to see the CD-4 unit leave. It is a phono preamp, so the owner is stuck with however that sounds for his turntable. My assessment of how that phono preamp sounds is grim.
On a lighter note, he has two Pioneer flippy digital clocks as well. The 1970's is well and alive at his house. He also had a massive Akai 4 channel tape machine I serviced. Everything is focused on Quad sound.
-Chris
The customer is picking up all his Pioneer stuff this weekend. I'll not be sorry to see the CD-4 unit leave. It is a phono preamp, so the owner is stuck with however that sounds for his turntable. My assessment of how that phono preamp sounds is grim.
On a lighter note, he has two Pioneer flippy digital clocks as well. The 1970's is well and alive at his house. He also had a massive Akai 4 channel tape machine I serviced. Everything is focused on Quad sound.
-Chris
Hi Bill,
Yes, I remember all that stuff. Including how silly some of those arms are to set up. Maybe not to someone who owns one, but all the poor technicians had to deal with every one of them.
In my opinion, there were some factory arms that were better than the aftermarket ones. I'll stick my neck out and say that the Thorens arms were well matched to the table they were on. It was just silly to install something else on them, but salesmen had an opportunity to sell something else. I think that push was mostly for more $$ at the end of the month. The customers suffered with botched installs.
How about the low capacitance cable craze? Not one compensated with the preamp loading, not one. I used to (and still do) measure the capacitance including the preamp input circuitry and pad the missing capacitance in the preamp while explaining the whys and hows of the operation. Most people adjusted quickly and liked having the proper load. This sometimes increased the high frequency output as the cartridge is supposed to resonate at the right place for a flat response. Get too far away from that pole and the HF response goes down.
Another thing that is poorly understood by the "experts" who sell low capacitance cable.
-Chris
Yes, I remember all that stuff. Including how silly some of those arms are to set up. Maybe not to someone who owns one, but all the poor technicians had to deal with every one of them.
In my opinion, there were some factory arms that were better than the aftermarket ones. I'll stick my neck out and say that the Thorens arms were well matched to the table they were on. It was just silly to install something else on them, but salesmen had an opportunity to sell something else. I think that push was mostly for more $$ at the end of the month. The customers suffered with botched installs.
How about the low capacitance cable craze? Not one compensated with the preamp loading, not one. I used to (and still do) measure the capacitance including the preamp input circuitry and pad the missing capacitance in the preamp while explaining the whys and hows of the operation. Most people adjusted quickly and liked having the proper load. This sometimes increased the high frequency output as the cartridge is supposed to resonate at the right place for a flat response. Get too far away from that pole and the HF response goes down.
Another thing that is poorly understood by the "experts" who sell low capacitance cable.
-Chris
Very good to everyone. Very interesting this discussion of the pro and cons of belt drive vs. turntables. direct drive.
In the error or in the success I have been convinced of the virtues of the turntables direct drive.
I was going to acquire Pro Ject Debut Carbon DC or Rega Planar 1-2.
But as a result of this debate I bought a new turntable used direct drive in excellent condition.
The audiophiles will insult me and the non-audiophiles will tell me to buy me a complication.
Well, I bought a Technics SL-10 with MC capsule (US $ 300. On Ebay I have seen them at US $ 1100-1700)
In the first listenings it seems very very good.
Time will tell.
In the error or in the success I have been convinced of the virtues of the turntables direct drive.
I was going to acquire Pro Ject Debut Carbon DC or Rega Planar 1-2.
But as a result of this debate I bought a new turntable used direct drive in excellent condition.
The audiophiles will insult me and the non-audiophiles will tell me to buy me a complication.
Well, I bought a Technics SL-10 with MC capsule (US $ 300. On Ebay I have seen them at US $ 1100-1700)
In the first listenings it seems very very good.
Time will tell.
Hi ALPUY,
Great score!
You bought very wisely. If you have a good TT technician in the area, you should have it cleaned and lubricated before you use it very much. It shouldn't cost very much and it will safeguard your investment. Plus, you might be surprised by any performance improvements. That would tend to prove your table needed service badly.
If you don't have such a technician, get the service manual, read a lot. Then gather the required supplies and do it yourself. Please do ask for advice from experts we have here. They can fill you in on the nuances of the job. Don't over-lubricate for example.
Best, Chris
Great score!
You bought very wisely. If you have a good TT technician in the area, you should have it cleaned and lubricated before you use it very much. It shouldn't cost very much and it will safeguard your investment. Plus, you might be surprised by any performance improvements. That would tend to prove your table needed service badly.
If you don't have such a technician, get the service manual, read a lot. Then gather the required supplies and do it yourself. Please do ask for advice from experts we have here. They can fill you in on the nuances of the job. Don't over-lubricate for example.
Best, Chris
Thank you very much Anatech. I have the service manual.
I have always liked to disarm and arm my audio systems even if they are new, just out of curiosity.
I will disarm; cleaning and some adjustment that you see necessary (I have a son electronic engineer. I will need multimeters and oscilloscopes).
Greetings and if necessary I will consult with you.
From what I see, it's working well.
I have always liked to disarm and arm my audio systems even if they are new, just out of curiosity.
I will disarm; cleaning and some adjustment that you see necessary (I have a son electronic engineer. I will need multimeters and oscilloscopes).
Greetings and if necessary I will consult with you.
From what I see, it's working well.
I've arrived at an odd mix of parts and paradigms in my own deck. It's a kuzma stabi s 12 belt drive but it uses a linn lp12 bearing, sub platter and platter and a Mober optical tachometer controller on a DC motor, basically a linn radical in the cheap. I run thick silicon fluid and a teflon pad in the bearing. The thick oil is about 2.2k cat, just thin enough not to upset the logic on the tachometer controller and provide a constant moderately high load on the motor. This utterly swamps variance in cartridge drag, so the DC motor sees a constant load.
I get the benefits of a quiet DC motor, feedback based speed control and a better quiter bearing than the stock kuzma setup. It's a bit of a mixed bag but it gives rock solid speed stability better than any other belt drive I've owned. The gap between it and an sme 10 was significant in favour of the kuxma.
The moral, thetes more than one way to skin this particular conundrum.
At some point I'll add maglev to the mix and eliminate the bearing point contact.
I get the benefits of a quiet DC motor, feedback based speed control and a better quiter bearing than the stock kuzma setup. It's a bit of a mixed bag but it gives rock solid speed stability better than any other belt drive I've owned. The gap between it and an sme 10 was significant in favour of the kuxma.
The moral, thetes more than one way to skin this particular conundrum.
At some point I'll add maglev to the mix and eliminate the bearing point contact.
Hope you will enjoy alot. Otherwise ask here for recomended mods.Funnily your post was the first of maybethe last hundred that was on topic 😀