Thanks for the validation.
Several years ago I found a TD160 rotting in a box in a garage. I bought it and restored it as best I could. When I first put it in my main system and played a record I was blown away by how much better it sounded than my modern Rega. I was even using the original AT15SS on the Thorens, which still had some life in it. My wife heard it too. Eventually the sound of the Rega improved as a result of the revelation. The Rega is gone but the process continues with my current three tables. It's amazing what gains you can make when you know there are gains to be made, even if you don't know how you're going to get there when you start the process.
One thought I had was something like a panzerholz sandwich armboard to see if it might bring some of the dynamics back, but I've looked off and on for panzerholz or something similar over the last few years, and again recently, with no success.
Yes, same experience here regarding my ear close to the table. Best hobby, for sure, without doubt!
Last edited:
I looked all over the US for Panzerholz and it is not available here.
You can get is in Canada, UK and of course Germany.
3/4" and 1" B15 is stocked but B25 is a special order out of Germany.
A google search for Delignit Canada will get you to their office in Quebec.
Their phone number is 819-428-1377
I tried to organize a bulk buy and even offered to cut it into some small mulitples of a full sheet, e.g. 1/3, 1/4, but no one was interested.
I think I am going to try Paperstone because you can actually buy it in something close to the amount you need to make a plinth.
Best of luck!
Thanks. I may not be building a new armband after all. I'm making headway with cartridge loading.
"A mistake?"
I'm surprised to hear this from you. Could you explain as to how you've come to tnis conclusion? Btw, are you still using the Souther?
Regards,
David
I'm surprised to hear this from you. Could you explain as to how you've come to tnis conclusion? Btw, are you still using the Souther?
Regards,
David
Last edited:
"A mistake?"
I'm surprised to hear this from you. Could you explain as to how you've come to tnis conclusion?
Regards,
David
I'm surprised to hear this from you. Could you explain as to how you've come to tnis conclusion?
Regards,
David
I use a 1/2" ply and 1/2" MDF construction. I could imagine ply MDF ply might beat anything. Bullet proof wood and slate can have a rather dry sound quality, even ply MDF is a bit lean sounding. The sad fact is that thick MDF is very good and hard to beat ( MDF ply MDF very likely the very best ). There seems to be a group of people who reject it becuase it's commonly use. I haven't used what we call Sterling board ( randon strand ply ). That seems likely to be good. As far as I know bullet proof wood ( panzerholz ) is ply with the moisture in the wood replaced by resin under vacuum. This makes for more mass which isn't always what you want. I could imagine concrete made with sawdust could work. It can be polished to look like marble. Some polystyrene beads might help ( read a lot ). Clearlight Audio RDC is from submarines adapted for audio. As it's designer says it respects the energy levels in audio rather than diesel engines. He also designed Thorens last audiophile turntable. RDC is a fantastic material. It's designer used Gaussian maths to explain how it works. I was very surprised when he made analogy with Kirchhoff which is usually electrical engineering. Specifically that random sized material can not resonate, a Gaussian City he called it. To quote " What they do in the City we can not tell and need not know, When they leave the city we do care and do know what to do ". As long as the energy levels are understood one can have ones cake and eat it. Kurt thinks about what he does. He says the ideal turntable bearing would be made of craked glass as a concept. This is very different to many recent ideas that resonate at about 6 kHz. I hate conceptual engineering. Hi fi gets far too much of it. The original TD124 bearing is very good if asking.
In the USA random ply and traditional ply cost much the same. The reason being builders like the random for many jobs. It was sold as a cheaper product at first. Now it has to be made from 1st grade materials that would make ply.
Celestion loudspeakers technical rep said that the SL6 prototype didn't sound good. The computer said the reflections from the box were returned as delayed energy. They were able to fine tune the rubber surround and glue to get the problem sorted out. He said imagine a stone dropped into a lake. Given that the lake is large the ripples die away. If two planks of wood are put in the lake and the stone dropped between them the ripples reflect back and react. Whilst many will not see a plinth as more than something to look at it is much like a loudspeaker. The movements you are looking at in deflection terms are well below 0.000001". In measurement terms we can add a zero to that for state of the art designs.
I was recording piano at Oxford town hall in the late 1970's. It sounded underwater. I phoned the BBC and got instant advice. The sound of the piano is going through the 1000's of tons of the town hall. That seems impossible. I took their advice and used string from the balconies. The sound was transformed. Knowing this I am always surprised how good turntables sound. The microphoes were nothing special, AKG D190 which I guess not really suitable. Set about the same height they sounded like really good ones when using string. I got told off by Health and Safety as a fire risk !!!! Even then.
In the USA random ply and traditional ply cost much the same. The reason being builders like the random for many jobs. It was sold as a cheaper product at first. Now it has to be made from 1st grade materials that would make ply.
Celestion loudspeakers technical rep said that the SL6 prototype didn't sound good. The computer said the reflections from the box were returned as delayed energy. They were able to fine tune the rubber surround and glue to get the problem sorted out. He said imagine a stone dropped into a lake. Given that the lake is large the ripples die away. If two planks of wood are put in the lake and the stone dropped between them the ripples reflect back and react. Whilst many will not see a plinth as more than something to look at it is much like a loudspeaker. The movements you are looking at in deflection terms are well below 0.000001". In measurement terms we can add a zero to that for state of the art designs.
I was recording piano at Oxford town hall in the late 1970's. It sounded underwater. I phoned the BBC and got instant advice. The sound of the piano is going through the 1000's of tons of the town hall. That seems impossible. I took their advice and used string from the balconies. The sound was transformed. Knowing this I am always surprised how good turntables sound. The microphoes were nothing special, AKG D190 which I guess not really suitable. Set about the same height they sounded like really good ones when using string. I got told off by Health and Safety as a fire risk !!!! Even then.
From the above I said I hate conceptual engineering. That wasn't the cracked glass bearing and that will remain a concept. It's the ones that take off the shelf parts for something else and sell them much as the cosmetics industries do. Conceptual engineering possibly is something different and respectable. It is used as a put down by friends. Conceptual being " conceptual " when said. Irony. " Oh no not more conceptual engineering ".
Slate?
Maybe I missed this earlier. Care to expand? I thought slate was a great option.
Maybe I missed this earlier. Care to expand? I thought slate was a great option.
Plenty of mass but it is not the greatest when it comes to deadness or energy absorption and every arm (different cartridges) I have mounted directly on the plinth has had a common set of colorations, and in particular a strongly objectionable mid-range glare. I found some improvement with polymer damping materials like dynamat placed between the layers. (My plinths are 4 pieces of slate each.)
It's not as well damped as claimed, and as plinth materials go I think baltic birch works better. Lead shot in milled pockets in the plinth seems to work better, paperstone is better still in my limited experience.
Slate is really expensive as well, and can look quite nice, but the sound is offputting. I have a number of friends who had slate plinths and at this point all have moved away. I'm not a big fan of vinyl at this point and am spending the money on digital and tape, so I will live with these plinths until the next wave of enthusiasm strikes.
It's not as well damped as claimed, and as plinth materials go I think baltic birch works better. Lead shot in milled pockets in the plinth seems to work better, paperstone is better still in my limited experience.
Slate is really expensive as well, and can look quite nice, but the sound is offputting. I have a number of friends who had slate plinths and at this point all have moved away. I'm not a big fan of vinyl at this point and am spending the money on digital and tape, so I will live with these plinths until the next wave of enthusiasm strikes.
So after 176 pages, you are giving up on vinyl. Too bad since you seem to have delved deep into getting the most out of vinyl.
Despite internet advice, I built my plinth out of 6 inches of granite. Sounds good to me but I've not compared plinths.
Of course he hasn't. Just found a new toy to distract himself with! Give it a year...
My initial guess is you want a material that sounds dead when you hit it, and doesn't reflect sound much (sounds dead with you shout at it), so cork covered MDF might be good. And you can sandwich layers of MDF easily. Stone and metal ring like a bell, a clue there I think!
And a dust cover is going to reduce acoustic feedback direct to the arm. Think of a cartridge as a contact microphone attached to the tonearm, turning it into a microphone itself. Vibration isolation at the headshell is a thing, I suspect its quite effective if done properly (which is probably very difficult)
These things are probably easy to evaluate, you are just testing a microphone and trying to make it more deaf after all! (Well, except at the cantilever)
Just turn up the gain with stylus on stationary disc and start clapping and tapping around
Not exactly, as Bill (who knows me well) has pointed out. I am just taking a break from this particular area of this obsessive hobby to obsess obsessively over some other aspect of the hobby.
I will probably add some additional damping to those annoying slate plinths in the fall if not sooner.
And I am still intrigued with the strain gauge cartridges as well..
I also went to a Papst 3 phase motor on the older 124 with variable frequency 3 phase drive (modified Siemens Micromaster) - it's very good.
I do think vinyl is an inherently flawed medium, in fact that is true of all analog media and the interfaces between the analog and digital world as well. I still have a lot of vinyl that gives most digital a pretty good run for the money. I also have some digital that in some ways vinyl can't touch, but that's surprisingly rare.
Tape just introduces a new set of as yet unfamiliar virtues and vices. However, it can sound not just a little better than vinyl in my very limited experience, it's also stupid expensive. (The machines and the recorded media to play on them.)
Hello to all.. First of all I want to thank everyone for sharing your knowledge and passion, it's been really helpfull and great fun!.
I wanted to make a little contribution regarding motor temperature. I haven't read the entire thread yet so I hope this isn't too redundant, apologises in advance if this is the case!.
Anyway, i've been reading about some of you having speed inconsistency problems and excessive motor Running temperatures. Causing motor rpms to drop after a few album slides.I believe the problem could be related to tightening of the bolt screws. If too much force is applied the heat dissipator in the middle compresses and thus allows less heat to escape. I've been having this issue for a long time and it was driving me crazy. Yesterday I was aligning the motor after an oil change and when I tightened the screws I noticed the middle panel compressing like an Accordion! Now the motor is running cooler than before, I haven't taken temperature measurements but it definitely feels cooler to the touch! Hooray!!
I wanted to make a little contribution regarding motor temperature. I haven't read the entire thread yet so I hope this isn't too redundant, apologises in advance if this is the case!.
Anyway, i've been reading about some of you having speed inconsistency problems and excessive motor Running temperatures. Causing motor rpms to drop after a few album slides.I believe the problem could be related to tightening of the bolt screws. If too much force is applied the heat dissipator in the middle compresses and thus allows less heat to escape. I've been having this issue for a long time and it was driving me crazy. Yesterday I was aligning the motor after an oil change and when I tightened the screws I noticed the middle panel compressing like an Accordion! Now the motor is running cooler than before, I haven't taken temperature measurements but it definitely feels cooler to the touch! Hooray!!