Building a new model....
Since that time, I retired and moved 600 miles north.
While the system still exists upstairs in the music room(I didn’t down size),
its too large for the downstairs where I listen to music.
So the new one is only 66 inches tall instead of 96 inches tall, but the ceiling is lower in that part of the room, and the mid ranges are still coupled to the ceiling and floor.
It is a 4 way, electronically analog crossed 24 db L-R. Each side consists of 25 2.5 inch full range, 36 1 inch tweeters, one 8 inch mid woofer, and one 12 inch sub woofer. The cross is 100/550/4500. Both woofers are in separate tube enclosures, and the 12 inch DVC 15mm Xmax woofer will be equalized to 27 hz in a sealed box, supported by a 375 Watts/rms per channel amplifier.
There is no need for equalization in any of the other ranges. The tweeter FR gradually rises, and the mid woofer and mid ranges are fairly flat.
I have no pictures of that yet, but the design is similar to the original, just smaller and more mids, slightly larger and more tweeters, and a more versatile lower end.
Since that time, I retired and moved 600 miles north.
While the system still exists upstairs in the music room(I didn’t down size),
its too large for the downstairs where I listen to music.
So the new one is only 66 inches tall instead of 96 inches tall, but the ceiling is lower in that part of the room, and the mid ranges are still coupled to the ceiling and floor.
It is a 4 way, electronically analog crossed 24 db L-R. Each side consists of 25 2.5 inch full range, 36 1 inch tweeters, one 8 inch mid woofer, and one 12 inch sub woofer. The cross is 100/550/4500. Both woofers are in separate tube enclosures, and the 12 inch DVC 15mm Xmax woofer will be equalized to 27 hz in a sealed box, supported by a 375 Watts/rms per channel amplifier.
There is no need for equalization in any of the other ranges. The tweeter FR gradually rises, and the mid woofer and mid ranges are fairly flat.
I have no pictures of that yet, but the design is similar to the original, just smaller and more mids, slightly larger and more tweeters, and a more versatile lower end.
I was wondering if you were still listening to the original system after 11 years!
Please post some pics of your new arrays whenever possible. I was surprised at how far apart your midrange drivers are spaced, but people make WAY to much fuss on comb filtering IMO...
We have something in common: we like the sound of the round PVC enclosure with round endcaps. However, I fell for 4" full range markaudio drivers, backed by subs and crossed at 200Hz.
Happy listening!
Please post some pics of your new arrays whenever possible. I was surprised at how far apart your midrange drivers are spaced, but people make WAY to much fuss on comb filtering IMO...
We have something in common: we like the sound of the round PVC enclosure with round endcaps. However, I fell for 4" full range markaudio drivers, backed by subs and crossed at 200Hz.
Happy listening!
My problem is that I’m a music listener and instrument player who builds speakers that sound real to him. Many DIYers are speaker builders who want measurements and who also listen to music.
So I build what I consider is the best I can possibly make, and then I listen to my 1500 CD’s and the radio on it. The listening to/playing music is more important and fun than building speakers. I see some of the workshops that speaker DIYers have and I just drool.
I have no interest in building lots of different kinds of speakers, or learning how to build crossovers, or making endless measurements so I can sell the product. I only build for my own listening pleasure. And there is no one here who will build the speakers I make even if I did publish data. The labor is just plain too intensive for 99% of people. After all making up 50 separate tube enclosures, filling them with pink fiberglass at exactly 4 lb/cu foot, and then putting in pyramids in the back wall of the tube to eliminate any possible standing waves, as well as cutting 100 holes to hold the tubes, is usually way over the top for most builders---even if the clarity of the result is astounding.
And, I’m not a mechanical or electrical engineer. I’m a retired counseling psychologist, so when posters launch into engineering math, I am long gone. I was a bio major 50 years ago, but had to get out when I was required to take calculus. Algebra 2 was as far as I got.
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Nice system Zarathu!
I built my first (and last!) 3-way line array 5 to 6 years ago. Getting 48 dome tweeters spaced 1.3" from each other, mounting 21 three inch mids and a dozen five inch woofers in a double bezel that fit together (for a sealed mid sub enclosure) test to really suck the fun out of life. Had a lot of fun trying to get the treble right, it rolled off above 10KHz because--science! Tried super tweeter bullets, it didn't sound right so I just jacked up the EQ at 15KHz +6dB and declared it good. The 74" tall line arrays are placed on 20" tall PPSL subs so the system stands 7ft 10 inches tall so will fit in rooms with 8 foot ceilings.
Presently (and forever if my wife can help it) they are sitting in my garage with 10 foot ceilings. They do sound better in the house but for garage/party/wide dispersion speakers that have little floor/ceiling bounce--they are a winner. Give them at least 20 inches of clearance at the top and bottom, they won't reflect off the ceiling/floor at 11 feet back or so which is critical for my garage.
The great thing about them is I understand what BIG is--the brain can't ignore over 160 speaker drivers belting out a tune as a wall of sound. Since they are in the garage, it cures my OCD because it's a garage so I'm happy the chaos happens after my listening position because of the very narrow vertical dispersion. They are not the be all, end all speaker design but if your needs are specific enough to match the specific way they operate, give them a shot.
Maybe in the future I'll go with another line array build? Maybe, but only if I can get AMTs long enough to cross low at a minimum of 1.5KHz or lower...maybe. My HT uses high efficiency speakers and my wife is NOT line array friendly so I have the garage system and the inhouse point source. One day I'd like to play with the curved Keele array just to see how well they work for wide dispersion surrounds--plenty of high efficiency full ranges coming out in the pro market so it could be an option in the future.
So Zarathu, have you messed around with arrays for home theater or surround use? I've read all the white papers and built a 3-way passive array but still ponder how arrays would work as a sound field when the movie industry uses point sources. Just a mental exercise, a pondering of mine because I'll be reconfiguring the HT for Atmos in the next year.
Have a great weekend!
I built my first (and last!) 3-way line array 5 to 6 years ago. Getting 48 dome tweeters spaced 1.3" from each other, mounting 21 three inch mids and a dozen five inch woofers in a double bezel that fit together (for a sealed mid sub enclosure) test to really suck the fun out of life. Had a lot of fun trying to get the treble right, it rolled off above 10KHz because--science! Tried super tweeter bullets, it didn't sound right so I just jacked up the EQ at 15KHz +6dB and declared it good. The 74" tall line arrays are placed on 20" tall PPSL subs so the system stands 7ft 10 inches tall so will fit in rooms with 8 foot ceilings.
Presently (and forever if my wife can help it) they are sitting in my garage with 10 foot ceilings. They do sound better in the house but for garage/party/wide dispersion speakers that have little floor/ceiling bounce--they are a winner. Give them at least 20 inches of clearance at the top and bottom, they won't reflect off the ceiling/floor at 11 feet back or so which is critical for my garage.
The great thing about them is I understand what BIG is--the brain can't ignore over 160 speaker drivers belting out a tune as a wall of sound. Since they are in the garage, it cures my OCD because it's a garage so I'm happy the chaos happens after my listening position because of the very narrow vertical dispersion. They are not the be all, end all speaker design but if your needs are specific enough to match the specific way they operate, give them a shot.
Maybe in the future I'll go with another line array build? Maybe, but only if I can get AMTs long enough to cross low at a minimum of 1.5KHz or lower...maybe. My HT uses high efficiency speakers and my wife is NOT line array friendly so I have the garage system and the inhouse point source. One day I'd like to play with the curved Keele array just to see how well they work for wide dispersion surrounds--plenty of high efficiency full ranges coming out in the pro market so it could be an option in the future.
So Zarathu, have you messed around with arrays for home theater or surround use? I've read all the white papers and built a 3-way passive array but still ponder how arrays would work as a sound field when the movie industry uses point sources. Just a mental exercise, a pondering of mine because I'll be reconfiguring the HT for Atmos in the next year.
Have a great weekend!
Unsure what you mean.
Are you saying that the comb filter distortion that could kick in at 10Khz with spacings of 1.3 inches on the domes was causing the highs to disappear---and that you could hear that?
Or were your domes just rolling off because of their quality. I’m unsure what you mean by “science!"
I used domes last time....
I used domes last time but this time, I’m going to use 12 PT-mini-6 planars per side. This will effectively eliminate comb filter distortion since the vertical dispersion is limited, and the speakers won’t be interfering with each other. By 10 feet out in the near field, the dispersion will be enough to blend the speakers without being enough to cause combing.
Since I am using 12 per side and thus not stressing them, additionally crossing at about 5Khz at 12 db octave, distortion will be small.
Finally, I was going to use 40 of the mini-speakers per side. Using 12 will be 3.5 times easier with the soldering, and thus 3.5 less time doing that.
I’ve had some discussion with some people who have done what I’m going to do using far less speakers, and they said that these planars are spectacular under these conditions.
I used domes last time but this time, I’m going to use 12 PT-mini-6 planars per side. This will effectively eliminate comb filter distortion since the vertical dispersion is limited, and the speakers won’t be interfering with each other. By 10 feet out in the near field, the dispersion will be enough to blend the speakers without being enough to cause combing.
Since I am using 12 per side and thus not stressing them, additionally crossing at about 5Khz at 12 db octave, distortion will be small.
Finally, I was going to use 40 of the mini-speakers per side. Using 12 will be 3.5 times easier with the soldering, and thus 3.5 less time doing that.
I’ve had some discussion with some people who have done what I’m going to do using far less speakers, and they said that these planars are spectacular under these conditions.
I have a strong idea why they roll off,
The 10mm domes sit behind a waveguide so narrow their dispersion above 10K. Oddly enough, at that high of frequency the SPL is around what one of them would be at the same power level. They are around 90dB 1w/1m and the array is--well, since they do weird things I'd say at around 97dB 1w/1m. Crank up the EQ +6dB at 15KHz and I get even response. They are +6dB louder at 8KHz so the EQ bump gets them even (enough) Purely an excercise in SPL.
Just part of the fun that the big battle is with the drivers that you have the most of. 24 woofers are much easier to replace than 96 tweeters so if I ever do a tweeter change, it must do something drastically perfect to make the change, cost and complexity worth it.
You idea with planar tweeters looks good--I'd much rather play around with planars that are 25cm tall than 3.5cm dome tweeters when machining the bezel or soldering all those connections together. In the future, maybe Samsung will roll out a graphene planar/AMT/ribbon that can handle a lot of power and be very high efficiency. My line array game is not over, just in constant delay mode waiting for the ultimate tweeter and a reasonable price.
I did build my arrays so the bezel is unbolted/unscrewed from the box and everything is mounted to the bezel. This allows cutting off the tweeter lines, the mid backing box or the woofer lines easily. No OCD issues with the woofer line, the midrange line is decent (not perfect) but a bit of EQ takes care of that. As always, it's the tweeter line but for now, EQ works well enough. They are garage speakers after all, the other issue is room acoustics so constant messing around with the lines yeilds small results when I know curing the garage acoustic issues will give better results.
The other factor is most line arrays are more for professional use--the last nth of sound quality is not a concern. It was very educational to attempt to get consumer drivers to play well with each other--I got close! Maybe in the future with advances in planar/ribbon/AMTs this will be much less of an issue. The Beyma AMT ribbon thing looks very good although at around $400 a pop they might get a big spendy--at least now you can get ribbon/AMTs at 100dB efficiency so progress is happening.
Now if somebody makes a 2 meter long planar/ribbon/AMT that is 100dB efficient at one watt and can peak out at 125dB+--and it is bendable/flexible--sign me up for a pair! 😎
So you didn’t cut the flanges on those Audax 10mm’s? The flange itself has a 74 mm diameter(2.91 inches) and if you add another 1.3 inches this comes to 4.21 inches center-to-center.
This means that even if you ignore the fact that us old geezers may not hear comb filter distortion because we can’t hear anything beyond 12Khz(Griffin, Russell, Keele, ME), comb filter cancellation could start at about 3200, which is 1100 hz below your crossover to the tweeters. This means that technically you would be losing frequencies due to cancellation in the woofer array even before you even got any tweeters into the mix at all.
I know Dr. Griffin has recanted and said that you cannot hear comb filter distortion cancellation as long as you sit still and don’t move; at this level maybe even Geezers can hear it.
And this is why, while I talked to Jim about using domes again, I think that I’m going to go with the inexpensive Dayton(actually Chinese company Sunderdunk) Planars.
But you must have cut the flanges, because 4.21 x 48 = 202 inches which would mean you have a 16 foot ceiling.
I would suggest that maybe your crossover has inadvertently dropped the power to them, after all that is a lot of series/parallel wiring in addition to your doing this in a passive network, that you already messed up once. It would seem more likely to me that you got the impedance wrong---like maybe 16 ohm, and the actual power you have pumping out to them is minimal. This is supported by your boosting them with an equalizer which is essentially a selective pre-amp booster.
This means that even if you ignore the fact that us old geezers may not hear comb filter distortion because we can’t hear anything beyond 12Khz(Griffin, Russell, Keele, ME), comb filter cancellation could start at about 3200, which is 1100 hz below your crossover to the tweeters. This means that technically you would be losing frequencies due to cancellation in the woofer array even before you even got any tweeters into the mix at all.
I know Dr. Griffin has recanted and said that you cannot hear comb filter distortion cancellation as long as you sit still and don’t move; at this level maybe even Geezers can hear it.
And this is why, while I talked to Jim about using domes again, I think that I’m going to go with the inexpensive Dayton(actually Chinese company Sunderdunk) Planars.
But you must have cut the flanges, because 4.21 x 48 = 202 inches which would mean you have a 16 foot ceiling.
I would suggest that maybe your crossover has inadvertently dropped the power to them, after all that is a lot of series/parallel wiring in addition to your doing this in a passive network, that you already messed up once. It would seem more likely to me that you got the impedance wrong---like maybe 16 ohm, and the actual power you have pumping out to them is minimal. This is supported by your boosting them with an equalizer which is essentially a selective pre-amp booster.
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What is the tweeter? What is it crossed at? Are the spaces between the tweeters any problem with tweeter continuity?
Tweeter is Fountek NeoCD2. It's crossed around 3k with the third order electrical and a bottomless notch at 1600hz. Actually, it's the most problematic element in the array because it's so hard to beat in to submission.
I am waiting for custom tweeters from Viawave to replace these.
If you look for "dead spots" in the projection between the tweeters you can spot them near the array, however 5-6ft away I don't think anyone can. My listening chair is about 7 ft away and the array create wonderful dynamic immersive presentation of the recording.
I am waiting for custom tweeters from Viawave to replace these.
If you look for "dead spots" in the projection between the tweeters you can spot them near the array, however 5-6ft away I don't think anyone can. My listening chair is about 7 ft away and the array create wonderful dynamic immersive presentation of the recording.
I mean the driver characteristics. What's in the pass band and what limits the pass-band. CD2.0 has a resonance at 1300hz and it's fairly hard to suppress in terms of crossover design. Requires lots of parts and careful work. I was addressing particular driver, not the general use of tall ribbons in the array design.
What slope do you use? And if you crossed it at at least 4000 with a 24 db L-R slope, shouldn’t the resonance be too far down to be noticeable?
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Isnt the point that the CD2 has resonance at 1300Hz and it is advised to crossover at least 1 octave above it?
Besides the peak, the CSD shows the temporal effects
The CD3.0 and H variant, which I use, has similar issues at a similar frequency. Crossing high enough and at least 3rd order knocks it into submission, pretty well.
Adding a coil across the shunt element, might help by turning the filter into an elliptical type, except that the lack of attenuation below the notch could cause issue.
The same technique applied to a low pass, the drop in attenuation is at least countered by the VC inductance, to some extent.
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