Guys,
I don't post here much - I've built three different Zaph designs and they all sound fantastic including my BAMTM's. Something has to be wired incorrectly. Good luck fixing them. Has to be something simple.
Regards,
I don't post here much - I've built three different Zaph designs and they all sound fantastic including my BAMTM's. Something has to be wired incorrectly. Good luck fixing them. Has to be something simple.
Regards,
Jay_WJ said:
Well, I actually thought the opposite and would have suggested a bit of tweeter attenuation 😕
tinitus said:
Tweeter attenuation is different from tweeter rolloff mod. He may want to try both.
I have never listened to that speaker (hard to see them in Europe especially when Dayton drivers are involved). From what I saw in that link, there are several BSC options. Some are light. There is also a mid plateau trend, plus a low treble one. Combining this with a strong horizontal projection due to low crossover and wide power response there, there is a chance to have used the light BSC and had em standing away from front wall - near side walls also. That, and the under cross music power range, usual MTM woofer paths off axis cancellation, can work together to throw the upper mids into sharp relief. Just one catastrophic scenario, if all wiring up is correct. What exactly is the problem with the vocals? Can you describe them as 'bodyless', 'wiry'? Do you feel there is much horizontal spread and not enough depth and texture? Be more specific SoundQuest, so we can nail the problem and Zaph can let you know your best configuration and positioning options.
I meant I would have suggested more BSC, hence the tweeter attenuation
but you are probably right as I am not really sure what is meant by lack of midrange...thin or "laid back" sound...not exactly the same thing
but you are probably right as I am not really sure what is meant by lack of midrange...thin or "laid back" sound...not exactly the same thing
Salas,
We need to leave Zaph alone until he updates his web site (currently under construction)!
We need to leave Zaph alone until he updates his web site (currently under construction)!
benchtester said:
Ok then, if SoundQuest decides to give us more specific description and data, but we have to leave the designer alone, then what is the point of this thread? 😕
For one, I would never suggest ways to tamper with Zaph's design since he is the only one who has the authority and SE files. He also is the only authority to say 'don't bug me' for him self.
tinitus said:
Don't know yet for sure what the builder means. I just gave a 'thin' scenario. Maybe, to the contrary, he means 'subdued' bcs somewhere he mentions 'vocals to come out'. If 'subdued' I suspect a polarity problem somewhere, because an MTM with an FR like in the link, and going shallow in the bass, isn't a candidate for closed in vocals if it has been properly executed.
Thanks Tinitus.
salas said:
You could still tinker with the design without zaph' input its just that it would no longer be a BAMTM. Nothing wrong with changing an existing design providing its done correctly.
But first things first. As others have pointed out, many people have built this design and this is the first thread that I've seen where someone is actively looking to 'improve' a specific part of the presentation. So before any changing to cater to taste I'd look carefully at all aspects of the build as a gremlin might have crept in somewhere.
The ability to take and post measurements would be a big plus at this point too and mandatory to successfully verify any changes you make should you go that route.
ShinOBIWAN said:
Only after Zaph's permission. Its a matter of discretion and tribute to an audio Prometheus.
salas said:
Well that would be the polite and proper thing to do for sure. Sort of like pulling out a chair for a lady or opening a window after you've farted.
But in reality he can do what he likes providing its not called Zaph's BAMTM. He bought the bits so why not.
All speaker designs have flaws. Every one has various compromises.
It's understandable that it's frustrating if someone blames your design - without posting pictures of the crossover and measurements of the speaker's response. Particularly when, it has happened repeatedly in the past that there's been a simple mistake in the build.
If I built, and listened to, all of Zaph's designs, I would be pleasantly quite surprised if even one of them didn't have any weak point that became obvious within less than a half hour of playing various songs.
That is, unless, several of you start telling me that most of his designs sound better than all other commercial speakers, at any price. Even speakers that are widely respected by all sorts of different reviewers have shortcomings that may make them unsatisfying to some listeners.
Having said that, based on Zaph's obvious knowledge, intelligence, and dedication, I would also have to guess that most of his designs sound better than most commercial and most DIY speakers.
I'm particularly interesting in hearing the waveguide one.
edit: ...just because a speaker uses only $100 in parts doesn't mean that it might not sound BETTER than a $10,000 commercial speaker.
The one area where I see Zaph hasn't gone very far to address is: cabinet damping. Any excellent enclosure is far more damped than a simple one layer wood wall. Things such as: curved surfaces, extensive bracing, multi-layer construction with constrained layer damping, using materials with different Qs in the layers, lead/bitumen sheets, etc, all can be used to reduce enclosure resonances. Also, there are more advanced/superior methods of damping internal standing waves than simple polyfill.
It's understandable that it's frustrating if someone blames your design - without posting pictures of the crossover and measurements of the speaker's response. Particularly when, it has happened repeatedly in the past that there's been a simple mistake in the build.
If I built, and listened to, all of Zaph's designs, I would be pleasantly quite surprised if even one of them didn't have any weak point that became obvious within less than a half hour of playing various songs.
That is, unless, several of you start telling me that most of his designs sound better than all other commercial speakers, at any price. Even speakers that are widely respected by all sorts of different reviewers have shortcomings that may make them unsatisfying to some listeners.
Having said that, based on Zaph's obvious knowledge, intelligence, and dedication, I would also have to guess that most of his designs sound better than most commercial and most DIY speakers.
I'm particularly interesting in hearing the waveguide one.
edit: ...just because a speaker uses only $100 in parts doesn't mean that it might not sound BETTER than a $10,000 commercial speaker.
The one area where I see Zaph hasn't gone very far to address is: cabinet damping. Any excellent enclosure is far more damped than a simple one layer wood wall. Things such as: curved surfaces, extensive bracing, multi-layer construction with constrained layer damping, using materials with different Qs in the layers, lead/bitumen sheets, etc, all can be used to reduce enclosure resonances. Also, there are more advanced/superior methods of damping internal standing waves than simple polyfill.
As far as I know its target has been a bargain speaker...I am sure it was never intended to be the end of all speakers...if you want ultimate perfection you may have to look elsewhere...just being realistic...can I say that 🙄
The fact that so few people in the community will share their SE files is a constant source of frustration.salas said:
It's senseless that everyone doesn't share their driver measurement files for the benefit of the community. Even if you work at a speaker company and you have to worry about proprietary aspects of your speaker's design, it still shouldn't hurt to share files that are just measurements of drivers.
We need a sticky on a forum where, whenever one of us gets a new driver and measures it, we post our SE or LspCAD, or .FRD and .ZMA files. Please.
My driver files are over 2mb, not many forums support attachments that big. If I emailed you my driver files measured with SE what would you do with them?
critofur said:
The fact that so few people in the community will share their SE files is a constant source of frustration.
We can always graphically trace any picture posted one. And there is automation for it. Never useful if we are about to change cabinet design though.
critofur said:
The fact that so few people in the community will share their SE files is a constant source of frustration.
It's senseless that everyone doesn't share their driver measurement files for the benefit of the community. Even if you work at a speaker company and you have to worry about proprietary aspects of your speaker's design, it still shouldn't hurt to share files that are just measurements of drivers.
We need a sticky on a forum where, whenever one of us gets a new driver and measures it, we post our SE or LspCAD, or .FRD and .ZMA files. Please.
Krutke explains why he doesn't share this information on his "email" page. I can understand and respect why he doesn't share the information, and I'm thankful he shares what he does.
critofur said:
We need a sticky on a forum where, whenever one of us gets a new driver and measures it, we post our SE or LspCAD, or .FRD and .ZMA files. Please.
I have seen a couple attempts like this over the past 10 years or so and at least for me, other peoples measurements are of limited value, at least for actual design work. If I am going to build a speaker, I am going to measure my drivers on my baffle, in my enviromnent.
Now the measurements Zaph and others post are helpful to me for deciding if I want to use a driver or not but I would never use someone elses measurements to design a speaker.
As always, YMMV
Regards,
Dennis
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