Howdy folks. I have asked a similar question here before, but I am justifying in my mind asking this all the same because I think the responses I will get will be quite different than my last question ("What mistakes did you make as a beginner?"). Anyways, this is all in good fun so I hope y'all don't mind.
My question is: how much did you know about speaker design at the time that you built your first speaker? How did it turn out?
I'm prompted to ask this because I want to do my due diligence before committing to building a speaker, but the more research I do on speaker design, the further I seem to get from being ready to make anything worth a damn.
I know I'll never know all the theory there is here to know, but when do you know when it's time to drop your cookbooks and design guides and start playing with power tools and caps and inductors and such? I hear nothing beats experience, but experience is expensive! Ya know?
Excited to hear responses, and I think it would be very cool if anyone included pictures of their first designs!
-Bryguy
EDIT: I should mention, I truly am more interested in hearing about your experiences than I am about collecting your advice. I have decided to build an established design before doing anything else. Hopefully that will make me more comfortable with committing to a design of my own
My question is: how much did you know about speaker design at the time that you built your first speaker? How did it turn out?
I'm prompted to ask this because I want to do my due diligence before committing to building a speaker, but the more research I do on speaker design, the further I seem to get from being ready to make anything worth a damn.
I know I'll never know all the theory there is here to know, but when do you know when it's time to drop your cookbooks and design guides and start playing with power tools and caps and inductors and such? I hear nothing beats experience, but experience is expensive! Ya know?
Excited to hear responses, and I think it would be very cool if anyone included pictures of their first designs!
-Bryguy
EDIT: I should mention, I truly am more interested in hearing about your experiences than I am about collecting your advice. I have decided to build an established design before doing anything else. Hopefully that will make me more comfortable with committing to a design of my own
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Good decision. There are many excellent designs to choose from by expericenced designers. Most important is to make sure that the overall size and driver confiiguration are a good match with your room and listening enviroment.
I second your decision to make an established design: as said, there are many designs and budgets from which to choose. I would try to build something which has been well reviewed and widely built so that you can get an idea of how they sound, etc. I've built several pairs of speakers, without exception the only ones which sounded right were those by established designers, some of whom, like Michael Chua and Ralf Giralfino, are regularly on this Forum. The two where I tried designing my own crossover (in Xsim, using traced graphs) made noise but were barely passable: they lacked that 'something', most likely around the crossover point. Using the same drivers, but proper crossovers, worked wonders.
The first pair for which I built the cabinets - Paul Carmody's Classix II - have many mistakes, though not in the sound, but the construction and finishing. They look very, very 'home made', I forgot to chamfer the inside of the woofer cut outs and I didn't round over the edges of the cabinets. I made speaker grilles to hide the drivers and daggy baffles! Also, as the backs are removable they don't quite fit properly, although they're well sealed.
Geoff
The first pair for which I built the cabinets - Paul Carmody's Classix II - have many mistakes, though not in the sound, but the construction and finishing. They look very, very 'home made', I forgot to chamfer the inside of the woofer cut outs and I didn't round over the edges of the cabinets. I made speaker grilles to hide the drivers and daggy baffles! Also, as the backs are removable they don't quite fit properly, although they're well sealed.
Geoff
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Woah cool! I don't think I've ever seen pictures on a speaker before. Nice look. I have heard Mr. Carmody's Amiga. They are nice speakers
"My question is: how much did you know about speaker design at the time that you built your first speaker?
Not much. I'd read a few websites / DIY builds. I didn't know about room effects, baffle step compensation, anything like that.
"How did it turn out?"
OK. I picked something very simple: big sealed boxes for 12" woofers. Carbon fiber cones, otherwise nothing remarkable.
I used these as subs for a pair of overbuilt, small sealed, 86dB/watt 2-way speakers. Simple passive crossovers. No test gear.
If I still had those same speakers, and added some of today's cheap gear (chip amps + UMIK + mini DSP), I could make a very sweet system out of it, rather than something just "OK".
That is, I'd end up with something vaguely similar to this:
http://noaudiophile.com/JBL_LSR308/
Not much. I'd read a few websites / DIY builds. I didn't know about room effects, baffle step compensation, anything like that.
"How did it turn out?"
OK. I picked something very simple: big sealed boxes for 12" woofers. Carbon fiber cones, otherwise nothing remarkable.
I used these as subs for a pair of overbuilt, small sealed, 86dB/watt 2-way speakers. Simple passive crossovers. No test gear.
If I still had those same speakers, and added some of today's cheap gear (chip amps + UMIK + mini DSP), I could make a very sweet system out of it, rather than something just "OK".
That is, I'd end up with something vaguely similar to this:
http://noaudiophile.com/JBL_LSR308/
Tandy/RadioShack were closing down. I took a chance and bought a stack of stuff and the Weems book.
I built a twin 8" plus 1" dome tweeter MTM. Turned out beautifully and I'm still using them as party speakers 20 years later.
Bougt some more drivers from store clearance stock and made my son a set of 3-Ways, WMTMW 8 + 4 + dome which were also pretty good. Been hooked ever since
I built a twin 8" plus 1" dome tweeter MTM. Turned out beautifully and I'm still using them as party speakers 20 years later.
Bougt some more drivers from store clearance stock and made my son a set of 3-Ways, WMTMW 8 + 4 + dome which were also pretty good. Been hooked ever since
Excluding my rebuild of my parents flip-down TT hifi into separates, first were Patterson Industry (Vancouver) with a middle of the road RSC 8” whizzer cone FR.
Driven by a Noresco with a DUAL 1210 sitting on top. Cost $120 for the whole rig IIRC. 1969.
dave
Driven by a Noresco with a DUAL 1210 sitting on top. Cost $120 for the whole rig IIRC. 1969.
dave
I did a similar early build: some Vifa tweeter and cheap-but-good 6.5" woofers. Mixed order passive X-over.
Turned out well - probably because it was very basic & used fairly nice parts. KISS = good for beginners.
Unusual features were:
- curved, sand-filled walls... just because I'd read about it somewhere.
- I wrapped the whole thing in vivid monster fur ...as requested (the speakers were not for me).
So it was accidentally a very good build, for baffle effects / diffraction 🙂
My first "diy" speaker was a kit from SpeakerLab (not the same company as today) around 1990. There was a minimal bit of assembly required, and made me think, "how hard can this be?"
Not long after that, I found a copy of the Loudspeaker Design Cookbook, and decided to try a vented design on my own. I got a small 4" woofer and cone tweeter from Radio Shack, and designed a vented box. I made a simple 1st order crossover using formulas and manufacturing specs. They made noise and served as computer speakers for a few years.
It took me a few years more to find more in-depth info on acoustics and crossovers, and eventually got measurement equipment and simulation software. Over the years, I've tried to design and build at least one or two speakers each year from scratch, often trying new configurations - just because. I've even made some improvements to the Ratshack speakers a few times.
Here it is 30+ years later, and I'm still learning. Some things are difficult, but when things work out, the end result is very satisfying. Oh . . . and it keeps me off the streets. 😉
Not long after that, I found a copy of the Loudspeaker Design Cookbook, and decided to try a vented design on my own. I got a small 4" woofer and cone tweeter from Radio Shack, and designed a vented box. I made a simple 1st order crossover using formulas and manufacturing specs. They made noise and served as computer speakers for a few years.
It took me a few years more to find more in-depth info on acoustics and crossovers, and eventually got measurement equipment and simulation software. Over the years, I've tried to design and build at least one or two speakers each year from scratch, often trying new configurations - just because. I've even made some improvements to the Ratshack speakers a few times.
Here it is 30+ years later, and I'm still learning. Some things are difficult, but when things work out, the end result is very satisfying. Oh . . . and it keeps me off the streets. 😉
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/diy-speakers-in-the-80s.383502/post-7040807
I think you can save money building expensive speakers, because (relatively) high-end speaker makers don't enjoy the same economies of scale that mass-market manufacturers do. See the kits at Madisound. But if you're trying to spend as little as possible because one cannot live on music alone, the bargains are in used speakers. Check out yard sales, thrift stores and pawn shops. Pairs of worthy speakers for less than the price of lunch. Some are amenable to DIY improvements (Radio Shack cut corners on the very common Minimus 7 crossover, for reasons that are immediately apparent when one goes shopping for a 1 mH air-core coil).
I think you can save money building expensive speakers, because (relatively) high-end speaker makers don't enjoy the same economies of scale that mass-market manufacturers do. See the kits at Madisound. But if you're trying to spend as little as possible because one cannot live on music alone, the bargains are in used speakers. Check out yard sales, thrift stores and pawn shops. Pairs of worthy speakers for less than the price of lunch. Some are amenable to DIY improvements (Radio Shack cut corners on the very common Minimus 7 crossover, for reasons that are immediately apparent when one goes shopping for a 1 mH air-core coil).
A goto guy for series XOs.
I just got the freshly routed boxes to do up your CHBW70+ERT26 2-way (in green dKal-El70R boxes)
Need to unwind a 0.5 mH tp 0.25.
dave
Pawn shops around here are usually asking too much. Yard sales can be really good.
I looked more for interesting drivers than the entire loudspeaker, but did keep some (RS Minimus-77 x 5). Quite a few pairs of Foster FE103A for $2-7 pair. Isopons, corals, even more exotic. I have a couole interesting singles for give away.
But i never found anything as good as, say, a set a A7.3 in FH3.
dave
This speaker was my first build...
What I knew about speaker design is what I had learned playing with Car audio for about 3 years. I came to a point where my car sounded much better than my home stereo and decided to do something about that. Prior to building the speakers I've studied the subject for about 1.5 years. Much of that time was spend on this forum. First sorting the threads on number of views and reading the most popular subjects. After finding out a bit of who is who on the forum, I started reading all posts by people who stuck out, members like gedlee, speaker dave and Tom Danley. I also read all papers I could get my hands on and searched for information from people like Floyd Toole, Sean Olive and (the late) John Dunlavy and Siegfried Linkwitz. After that year and a half I started building, ran into some trouble, like cracked enclosures but in the end managed to salvage the build and succeed. I shared it all, both the good and the bad things that happened.
How did it turn out? Better than expected, actually. This speaker turned out to be a platform I could improve on, and I've done so for years. Still learning and developing my own knowledge on the subject. But due to the time invested in the prior research I did make a couple of good choices like enclosure shape etc.
The rest, like learning the ropes of DSP, I learned along the way. DSP often gets a bad reputation. People often warn that EQ will make the speaker(s) sound dull. After a lot of study I'm not thinking that needs to be true. We just need to take the time to learn tools like these. I only blame myself if things don't work out as planned.
Pick speakers that fit your room. Preferably ones that can work with your room. Not an easy choice, as you first need to find out what you want. Go out and listen to other setups to find clues of what you like. Builds from other users in their home, perhaps... What made my build a succes was that it really does work with the room, but I do have room treatment to get there. The poster, as well as behind those curtains are huge absorbing panels. That's what I came up with in that first year and a half of study. I have a family, and needed to find ways to keep it acceptable for them as well. I may be lucky to have found a girl that accepts monster speakers like these in our room though. I did have to promise that this is it! No more speakers! (next to the two main speakers there are two more ambient speakers behind the pillows of the couch 😉).
My message or advise would be, take it easy, learn and digest it first, so you have an idea what it is you want. An above all: enjoy the ride!
What I knew about speaker design is what I had learned playing with Car audio for about 3 years. I came to a point where my car sounded much better than my home stereo and decided to do something about that. Prior to building the speakers I've studied the subject for about 1.5 years. Much of that time was spend on this forum. First sorting the threads on number of views and reading the most popular subjects. After finding out a bit of who is who on the forum, I started reading all posts by people who stuck out, members like gedlee, speaker dave and Tom Danley. I also read all papers I could get my hands on and searched for information from people like Floyd Toole, Sean Olive and (the late) John Dunlavy and Siegfried Linkwitz. After that year and a half I started building, ran into some trouble, like cracked enclosures but in the end managed to salvage the build and succeed. I shared it all, both the good and the bad things that happened.
How did it turn out? Better than expected, actually. This speaker turned out to be a platform I could improve on, and I've done so for years. Still learning and developing my own knowledge on the subject. But due to the time invested in the prior research I did make a couple of good choices like enclosure shape etc.
The rest, like learning the ropes of DSP, I learned along the way. DSP often gets a bad reputation. People often warn that EQ will make the speaker(s) sound dull. After a lot of study I'm not thinking that needs to be true. We just need to take the time to learn tools like these. I only blame myself if things don't work out as planned.
Pick speakers that fit your room. Preferably ones that can work with your room. Not an easy choice, as you first need to find out what you want. Go out and listen to other setups to find clues of what you like. Builds from other users in their home, perhaps... What made my build a succes was that it really does work with the room, but I do have room treatment to get there. The poster, as well as behind those curtains are huge absorbing panels. That's what I came up with in that first year and a half of study. I have a family, and needed to find ways to keep it acceptable for them as well. I may be lucky to have found a girl that accepts monster speakers like these in our room though. I did have to promise that this is it! No more speakers! (next to the two main speakers there are two more ambient speakers behind the pillows of the couch 😉).
My message or advise would be, take it easy, learn and digest it first, so you have an idea what it is you want. An above all: enjoy the ride!
First speakers I've built were Fostex FP253 in BK202 back-loaded horns to which I added JBL 2402 bullet tweeters.
Turned out ok but cured me from BLHs and wide-band drivers for good.
Turned out ok but cured me from BLHs and wide-band drivers for good.
Built my first speaker at 11 yrs old in 1968. Not much design knowledge then, but I had read some magazine articles and the Allied-Radio Shack catalogs. So I just made the box similar size to the retail 8" speakers and guessed at a 3" port. Used an 8" full range driver rescued from the garbage of our local TV repair shop. Lined the box with felt padding and used an old sweater for the grill cloth. Hooked it up to my mono Panasonic cassette tape recorder and it sounded much better and louder than the built-in speaker, so I was happy. It's been my hobby ever since. Never purchased a retail speaker - only DIY.
My first project was building a "C-Note" lookalike 3 months ago, with the same drivers but with my own cabinet, a bit different from the original e.g. it has a slot port. I am not a novice with power-tools so that part wasn't an issue. Although I had no access to audio measurement equipment at the time: I made some tiny changes in the crossover and the speaker actually turned out ok sound-wise. I should probably say despite my changes it sounded ok.
Doing this I've learned that even medium-expensive and properly calibrated woodworking tools (Makita, Festool) are sometimes not accurate enough to make perfect cabinets. Up until this day, and even when I'm taking my time, I end up with MDF cabinets where I often have a "nail" of difference on where the panels meet. That's frustrating, I want perfection. The CNC cutting machine at the woodshop is my new best friend 😎
I actually liked the way it evolved these months: from just building something without much knowledge and getting half decent sound out of it, to gradually getting involved in other important areas like measuring your new drivers in a built enclosure before digitally designing a crossover, taking the time to draw the enclosure in Sketchup to avoid those "oh right, this won't fit here and I've already glued everything" moments, etc.
Start building now before wood becomes too expensive for us mortals! 😈
Doing this I've learned that even medium-expensive and properly calibrated woodworking tools (Makita, Festool) are sometimes not accurate enough to make perfect cabinets. Up until this day, and even when I'm taking my time, I end up with MDF cabinets where I often have a "nail" of difference on where the panels meet. That's frustrating, I want perfection. The CNC cutting machine at the woodshop is my new best friend 😎
I actually liked the way it evolved these months: from just building something without much knowledge and getting half decent sound out of it, to gradually getting involved in other important areas like measuring your new drivers in a built enclosure before digitally designing a crossover, taking the time to draw the enclosure in Sketchup to avoid those "oh right, this won't fit here and I've already glued everything" moments, etc.
Start building now before wood becomes too expensive for us mortals! 😈
My first speaker was a kit of Audax.
I bought the speakers and the x-over components in a local shop and I built the cabinet by myself as in that period I was working in a carpentry during my summer holidays. The cabinet was made by 22mm MDF panel and had a light oak veneer.
Speakers
Original filter and cabinet design by Audax
They are still alive and sounding - 40 years later - in the basement at my parents' house even if I had to refoam the midwoofer with the rubber surround of a ScanSpeak 18w-something and coated the midwoofer.
Unfortunately the original veneer has been ruined by the humidity and I had to paint it black a caouple of years ago.
I bought the speakers and the x-over components in a local shop and I built the cabinet by myself as in that period I was working in a carpentry during my summer holidays. The cabinet was made by 22mm MDF panel and had a light oak veneer.
Speakers
Original filter and cabinet design by Audax
They are still alive and sounding - 40 years later - in the basement at my parents' house even if I had to refoam the midwoofer with the rubber surround of a ScanSpeak 18w-something and coated the midwoofer.
Unfortunately the original veneer has been ruined by the humidity and I had to paint it black a caouple of years ago.
Yeah, that's my special interest alright. The past couple years I've worked with co-ax drivers. TerryO's 8" OB Radians w/18" bass unit turned out excellent, and I'm currently working on some 15" Radian co-axes for a couple of other friends. The 15s were a Craigslist find, apparently salvaged from an auditorium renovation.
Attachments
Here's a summary of what I did for TerryO's Open Baffles.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/radian-5208c-coaxial-project.283818/post-6707453
The circuit includes an 18" (unknown) bass unit in parallel with the 5208C coax. Remove the 18" network along with the 133uF cap and that will give you a series crossover for the coax (including impedance compensation R11, L8, C7). Fairly benign load, and phase alignment is great. Not much baffle step compensation, so by itself the 8" coax really needs a bass unit to help out.