I never heard a Raal, but I listened to an Heil AMT-1 and some compression drivers from JBL to TAD.... Have to say with triangles and bells, good compressions do their job as far there is dynamic headroom in the reccording... and if the source is GOOD ENOUGH (oh guys, so much time wasted to benchmark speakers with bad sources...)
Damn, I find there is more brakes with the sources than speakers... the last being much more tonal colored according the designer choices... and the sources he owns... to make it short.... of course the measurements, the anechoic room, etc, the marketing to sell, etc; bla bla bla bla...
Is is so simple to claim RAAL is the King here ? For instance, heard some TAD compressions : not the most detailed but in a good environment : SO NATURAL (always the room??? Expansion of the horn ?? Both ?)
Damn, I find there is more brakes with the sources than speakers... the last being much more tonal colored according the designer choices... and the sources he owns... to make it short.... of course the measurements, the anechoic room, etc, the marketing to sell, etc; bla bla bla bla...
Is is so simple to claim RAAL is the King here ? For instance, heard some TAD compressions : not the most detailed but in a good environment : SO NATURAL (always the room??? Expansion of the horn ?? Both ?)
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Hi,
I would like to know : does an AMT or a Ribon tweeter keep all its qualities if too much atenuated by a serie resistor to match its impedance with the midrange unit ?
What are yours experience with RAAL ribons or AMT technology with that please ?
Finaly, any mid-tweeter able to go at a 1000 Hz crossover ? Compression drivers the Kings here ?
I attenuate my midrange, not my tweeters. AMT is crap, Raal is great, IMHO.
your benchmark seemed sincere and inpired me 
... and you know about compression drivers too !
I'm agree with you... if no horn, the unit between the tweeter and a good mid-bass is a challenge (at least for the two cents enthusiast I am) in an non horned speaker.
With horn, it seems to have XO between 700 Hz and 1000 Hz is the challenge... while finding an horn and a driver combo being good enough from the low to the end with a good directivity and not too much distorsion due to the horn ! (1000 Hz : a great trade off in the apex tweeter XO with synergy design ??)
Even Earl had pain for the high end... btw I ask mysel if a absorbent horn (foam?) horn could change the paradigm about distorsions... (with or without foam HOM filter in front of it) ?
... and you know about compression drivers too !I'm agree with you... if no horn, the unit between the tweeter and a good mid-bass is a challenge (at least for the two cents enthusiast I am) in an non horned speaker.
With horn, it seems to have XO between 700 Hz and 1000 Hz is the challenge... while finding an horn and a driver combo being good enough from the low to the end with a good directivity and not too much distorsion due to the horn ! (1000 Hz : a great trade off in the apex tweeter XO with synergy design ??)
Even Earl had pain for the high end... btw I ask mysel if a absorbent horn (foam?) horn could change the paradigm about distorsions... (with or without foam HOM filter in front of it) ?
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After using both extensively, the TPL-150 isn't in the same class as the Raal for resolution and ease of sound. It never disappears the way the Raals can.
But, it you need ultimate dynamics and output, it's the one of the best choice as far as I've heard and tested.
Greg
Hello Studiotech,
Still think that your speaker with Raal and ScanSpeak mid-woof was a good design
Did you find the attenuation needed for the Raal to match the ScansPeak weaked the Raal? Or did it keep all its sounding qualiies despite the resistor in serie ? (I don' rember if you use active or passive!)
Btw : not too much heat in Florida this summer !
best regards
Eldam
Still think that your speaker with Raal and ScanSpeak mid-woof was a good design
Did you find the attenuation needed for the Raal to match the ScansPeak weaked the Raal? Or did it keep all its sounding qualiies despite the resistor in serie ? (I don' rember if you use active or passive!)
Btw : not too much heat in Florida this summer
!best regards
Eldam
That's interresting !
Tweeters have a lot to do (comon definition of treble is >= 2 000 Hz range) : same time: fundamentals to reproduce as harmonics from drivers below ! And the kicks of drums has certainly not the last to need a good tweeter for subjectiv transcient (imo at least)
Welln what Frangus seems to say maybe : it's not easy for the drivers (and the crosovers) to keep all their qualities in a dynamic behavior
Tweeters have a lot to do (comon definition of treble is >= 2 000 Hz range) : same time: fundamentals to reproduce as harmonics from drivers below ! And the kicks of drums has certainly not the last to need a good tweeter for subjectiv transcient (imo at least)
Welln what Frangus seems to say maybe : it's not easy for the drivers (and the crosovers) to keep all their qualities in a dynamic behavior
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I've noticed this quality with TAD drivers as well : TDA 200x if I remember and the TAD ET 703 above.... (they disseaper with a treble which seems "short" = high treble à la BBC curve ?)
Beyond that : this is the natural tonal balance which catched my carefull listening.... (could be the designer choices, the rooms as well ?): not too much discussion to know what is happening above 10 K Hz according the music, our listening environment, etc (or i missed Something?!)
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Hello Studiotech,
Still think that your speaker with Raal and ScanSpeak mid-woof was a good design
Did you find the attenuation needed for the Raal to match the ScansPeak weaked the Raal? Or did it keep all its sounding qualiies despite the resistor in serie ? (I don' rember if you use active or passive!)
Btw : not too much heat in Florida this summer
best regards
Eldam
Attenuation was not a big deal since three way active with DSP from the Digmoda plate amps. Don't forget there was a BG Neo8-S in between the Raal and scan speak.
Greg
PS. We had our first fall feeling day this week. Thank goodness!
Attachments
Thread revival.
Will get to compare this week-end a pair of Beyma TPL150H v.s. a pair of RAAL 140-15D.
Finally got our hands on some very fine DAC that will do justice to these very appreciated tweeters, so it should give a very good idea.
To be honest, i would've prefered a blind test to start with, but that will come later if we think it worth the trouble to organize one...
For now, let's make it old school subjective but at least with few pairs of ears ;-)
As far as i know, both the Beyma and RAAL are in their comfort zone from 2khz, both should deliver some great results and the expected differences should be between the very top-end (RAAL's advantage) and the 2-4khz (Beyma's advantage). At least, that's based on the comments we had here and there...
We'll see (and hear)!
Will get to compare this week-end a pair of Beyma TPL150H v.s. a pair of RAAL 140-15D.
Finally got our hands on some very fine DAC that will do justice to these very appreciated tweeters, so it should give a very good idea.
To be honest, i would've prefered a blind test to start with, but that will come later if we think it worth the trouble to organize one...
For now, let's make it old school subjective but at least with few pairs of ears ;-)
As far as i know, both the Beyma and RAAL are in their comfort zone from 2khz, both should deliver some great results and the expected differences should be between the very top-end (RAAL's advantage) and the 2-4khz (Beyma's advantage). At least, that's based on the comments we had here and there...
We'll see (and hear)!
Sounds like fun, wish i could be there! The only thing I see that might be considered an issue is, the TPL-H version is horn loaded (Right?) against a flat baffled ribbon.
p.s. please let us know what the DAC brand is. Thanks !
Two DACs:
Forssell MADA-2a
and
SPL Director
SPL is german made, i don't know it yet, but the Forssell is one of the best i ever heard:
Forssell MADA2
Forssell MADA-2a
and
SPL Director
SPL is german made, i don't know it yet, but the Forssell is one of the best i ever heard:
Forssell MADA2
Jon, I'd read your findings with great interest!
It is true that Beyma would have the advantage below 4k, as it has a nice flat response, while 140 has 3db/oct slope below 4k...However, when I design speaker with 140's, I don't leave that roll-off without compensating for it, so the final ribbon response does not have a hole between 2 and 4k.
Therefore, I think that making a compensation in the bottom octave would be representative of what that tweeter would do in a nicely designed and voiced speaker.
Since I've gradually changed my appreciation of crossover points in the past 3-4 years, this compensation is very easily done, considering that now I'm crossing all tweeters (including largest ones of any type) above 2.5-2.8k.
Anyhow, in this comparison, I'd leave the horn on Beyma, if the designer thinks it is better with it. If it was used only to boost the max SPL in pro applications, and the designer thinks it is better naked, then I'd use it naked.
Naturally, acoustic lens (foam pads) on 140's must be used. And flush mounted on a baffle of at least 25cm wide (though I personally prefer much wider baffles). I also recommend mounting the tweeter off-center, an inch or so, but consider that to be a minor detail...
Cheers,
Alex
Hi Jon,
Yes, remove the TPL Horn please... there are 100 Db left !
Too bad there are not foam pads for the Beyma, It could have been very fun with the Raals' to compare vertical pattern ! Maybe the Beyma's doesn't need it, I don't know !
Beyma can't use acoustical lensing as it has a flat response.
You need a steadily rising response on axis (3db/oct in RAAL) in order to get the flat response after you spread that excessive energy over a wider vertical angle.
That way, on axis response becomes flat and you get better off-axis response.
Or, you could use acoustical lens on flat response line sources, but you would have to compensate (preferably actively) for the roll-off on axis.
BTW, contrary to popular opinion, foam pads have insignificant absorption. They are, in essence, delay lines and the wavefront shape is changed. On-axis highs are not absorbed, just spread vertically...
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