>>> What speakers were they?
It was this speaker.
Neat Iota Alpha, It Appears Good Things Do Come In Small Packages ? Audio T
Rave reviews all over the web. They certainly sounded good but I just did not like the treble.
Many may disagree. Maybe ribbon tweeters just aren't my thing.
It was this speaker.
Neat Iota Alpha, It Appears Good Things Do Come In Small Packages ? Audio T
Rave reviews all over the web. They certainly sounded good but I just did not like the treble.
Many may disagree. Maybe ribbon tweeters just aren't my thing.
Saying that you don't like ribbons based on one design, is the same thing as saying you don't like horns based on one poor design. Listen to a pair of Fountek or RAAL ribbons in a good design and you will be sure to change your mind.
I will do that Face. You are absolutely correct. I can see how someone might not like horns in a given design. I'm sure it's the same with ribbons. Thanks.
Here is my own opinions of some tweeters I own and auditioned:
Raal 140-15D - the best I have heard. The dipole version might be even better, because I am not sure the back chamber is optimized, and it is impossible to change the backchamber. I have tried it with and without horn. Without horn I prefer it at 3kHz. With a horn I can cross it down to 2kHz, even if Aleksander was strongly against it. Both me and my girlfriend like it better with a horn, but I am pretty sure Aleksander is right and the horn is too large and creates too much distortion. What I might miss with the Raal, especially since I am using it so low, is some expressiveness, like I got from the JA-4281B, but it is so clear that I can live with it. As a midrange I have used the Yamaha JA6681B in a large horn, with JBL 2225H as midbass.
PLEATED DIAPHRAGM TWEETERS TPL-150/H - The Beyma AMT pales in comparison with the Raal. I can here too much garbage. It has the benefit of being able to be crossed at 1800Hz, if you don't mind how it sounds. Anyone want an AMT? I crossed it to a Saba Greencone 8" vintage cone driver as midrange, with JBL 2225H as midbass.
Sonus Faber Stradivari Homage - Scan-Speak custom silk ring-radiator tweeter crossed at 4 kHz, which must be damn close to the Scan-Speak R2904/700009: After hearing it a few years ago I was sure it was one of the best I had ever heard. Then I bought the Raal 140-15D, and went for a second audition recently. Way too much garbage!
Yamaha JA-4281B - A vintage horn tweeter with aluminum ring radiator diaphragm and phase plug, which was released together with the JA-6681B midrange compression driver in the early 80's. Very interesting at first, but can sound quite sharp. I think this is a trait it shares with all tweeters with a voice coil, and especially horn tweeters. It is very efficient and has a short little throat/horn. It is good and expressive, but I could never get over the sharpness.
Beyma CP-380/M - A compression driver tweeter with plastic dome diaphragm and phase plug. Used in the Avantgarde Trio, in some version, and is highly regarded. I could not get over that plastic sound of it. It does not go very high either, and forget EQ to compensate. Too much garbage sound!
MBL - Radialstrahler 101 E MKII (€50.000) auditioned with the MBL 9011 amplifier (€38.000) - Very expensive omnidirectional speakers with a very exotic design that uses aluminum ribbons attached to a voice coil that moves up and down vertically to move the rows of ribbons. It has two drivers on top of each other, one with short ribbons for the tweeter and one for long ribbons for midrange. It has everything going for it. I listened to some of my own music and also a pipe organ piece that the clerk recommended. Sad part was it had waaay too much garbage, also in the midrange. I was surprised how bad they were, considering the price. The clerk happily bragged about how he had recently sold 6 of them.
Klipsch Klipschorn (€14.000) - A fun vintage speaker that I can't really say anything bad about- It uses a combo of the Electro Voice tweeter K 77 ( T35) in a small horn and Klipsch K55-V in a large horn. A lot has happened since it was first created, but they were very fun to listen to. I actually tried the Klipsch K55-V at home in my own horns and it is a nice midrange that can reach up to maybe 12kHz. The K55-V has a phenolic diaphragm and does not have as much detail as aluminum diaphragm compression driver, but it softens up the sound in a nice way. I would listen to 60's surfer rock all day with this speaker.
Focal Sopra N°3 - (€180.000) It uses a an inverted beryllium tweeter with a horn shaped back chamber fillled with dampening material, see picture. http://www.the-ear.net/sites/default/files/Sopra_Tweeter_Eclate.jpg
My overall impression was that this was not very interesting speaker. Maybe the amplifier was not warm enough, or I was in a bad mood, but this speaker remains a big parenthesis in my listening experience. I had such hopes, because Focal has a lot of good publicity in Europe. The woofers and midrange sounded a bit congested. I remember I tried to listen for something special in the tweeter, but found nothing that interested me.
Martin Logan CLS - 45–19,000 Hz (more like 150-15kHz) Not actually a tweeter, but a full-range dipole electrostatic panel that can play adequate treble. What was more liberating was that it is fullrange and had no crossovers down to 80Hz, where a powerful subwoofer took over. Sure, it was missing something in the midbass. Great midrange when not pushed to hard. Very picky with material, as some songs sounded like they were using samples with very low quality. It was like a magnifying glass that could see every detail, beautiful or ugly. Most often ugly as most musicians and mastering engineers do not own high end speakers. Sometimes I was really missing my 15" JBL midwoofers.
ER Audio electrostatic mini panels - 200Hz-20kHz dipoles. My latest purchase and similar to the CLS, but 15 times smaller. Their quality made me spend even more money to build a First Watt F6 amplifier. I have no idea how I will incorporate them with the rest of my speakers, but I need them. They are fantastic. They sound a little clearer than the Martin Logan CLS, but are smaller in size, so the CLS has an advantage in soundstage. Contact Rob in Australia at Electrostatic Loudspeakers By ER Audio if you want a pair. They cost about $600 for a pair including power supply and everything you need. You can upgrade later to have four. That would be nice.
Raal 140-15D - the best I have heard. The dipole version might be even better, because I am not sure the back chamber is optimized, and it is impossible to change the backchamber. I have tried it with and without horn. Without horn I prefer it at 3kHz. With a horn I can cross it down to 2kHz, even if Aleksander was strongly against it. Both me and my girlfriend like it better with a horn, but I am pretty sure Aleksander is right and the horn is too large and creates too much distortion. What I might miss with the Raal, especially since I am using it so low, is some expressiveness, like I got from the JA-4281B, but it is so clear that I can live with it. As a midrange I have used the Yamaha JA6681B in a large horn, with JBL 2225H as midbass.
PLEATED DIAPHRAGM TWEETERS TPL-150/H - The Beyma AMT pales in comparison with the Raal. I can here too much garbage. It has the benefit of being able to be crossed at 1800Hz, if you don't mind how it sounds. Anyone want an AMT? I crossed it to a Saba Greencone 8" vintage cone driver as midrange, with JBL 2225H as midbass.
Sonus Faber Stradivari Homage - Scan-Speak custom silk ring-radiator tweeter crossed at 4 kHz, which must be damn close to the Scan-Speak R2904/700009: After hearing it a few years ago I was sure it was one of the best I had ever heard. Then I bought the Raal 140-15D, and went for a second audition recently. Way too much garbage!
Yamaha JA-4281B - A vintage horn tweeter with aluminum ring radiator diaphragm and phase plug, which was released together with the JA-6681B midrange compression driver in the early 80's. Very interesting at first, but can sound quite sharp. I think this is a trait it shares with all tweeters with a voice coil, and especially horn tweeters. It is very efficient and has a short little throat/horn. It is good and expressive, but I could never get over the sharpness.
Beyma CP-380/M - A compression driver tweeter with plastic dome diaphragm and phase plug. Used in the Avantgarde Trio, in some version, and is highly regarded. I could not get over that plastic sound of it. It does not go very high either, and forget EQ to compensate. Too much garbage sound!
MBL - Radialstrahler 101 E MKII (€50.000) auditioned with the MBL 9011 amplifier (€38.000) - Very expensive omnidirectional speakers with a very exotic design that uses aluminum ribbons attached to a voice coil that moves up and down vertically to move the rows of ribbons. It has two drivers on top of each other, one with short ribbons for the tweeter and one for long ribbons for midrange. It has everything going for it. I listened to some of my own music and also a pipe organ piece that the clerk recommended. Sad part was it had waaay too much garbage, also in the midrange. I was surprised how bad they were, considering the price. The clerk happily bragged about how he had recently sold 6 of them.
Klipsch Klipschorn (€14.000) - A fun vintage speaker that I can't really say anything bad about- It uses a combo of the Electro Voice tweeter K 77 ( T35) in a small horn and Klipsch K55-V in a large horn. A lot has happened since it was first created, but they were very fun to listen to. I actually tried the Klipsch K55-V at home in my own horns and it is a nice midrange that can reach up to maybe 12kHz. The K55-V has a phenolic diaphragm and does not have as much detail as aluminum diaphragm compression driver, but it softens up the sound in a nice way. I would listen to 60's surfer rock all day with this speaker.
Focal Sopra N°3 - (€180.000) It uses a an inverted beryllium tweeter with a horn shaped back chamber fillled with dampening material, see picture. http://www.the-ear.net/sites/default/files/Sopra_Tweeter_Eclate.jpg
My overall impression was that this was not very interesting speaker. Maybe the amplifier was not warm enough, or I was in a bad mood, but this speaker remains a big parenthesis in my listening experience. I had such hopes, because Focal has a lot of good publicity in Europe. The woofers and midrange sounded a bit congested. I remember I tried to listen for something special in the tweeter, but found nothing that interested me.
Martin Logan CLS - 45–19,000 Hz (more like 150-15kHz) Not actually a tweeter, but a full-range dipole electrostatic panel that can play adequate treble. What was more liberating was that it is fullrange and had no crossovers down to 80Hz, where a powerful subwoofer took over. Sure, it was missing something in the midbass. Great midrange when not pushed to hard. Very picky with material, as some songs sounded like they were using samples with very low quality. It was like a magnifying glass that could see every detail, beautiful or ugly. Most often ugly as most musicians and mastering engineers do not own high end speakers. Sometimes I was really missing my 15" JBL midwoofers.
ER Audio electrostatic mini panels - 200Hz-20kHz dipoles. My latest purchase and similar to the CLS, but 15 times smaller. Their quality made me spend even more money to build a First Watt F6 amplifier. I have no idea how I will incorporate them with the rest of my speakers, but I need them. They are fantastic. They sound a little clearer than the Martin Logan CLS, but are smaller in size, so the CLS has an advantage in soundstage. Contact Rob in Australia at Electrostatic Loudspeakers By ER Audio if you want a pair. They cost about $600 for a pair including power supply and everything you need. You can upgrade later to have four. That would be nice.
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hi Rewind - I have Klipschorns, and experienced T35s for 40 some years . Also, Yamaha JA-4281B which make really good "helper" tweeters. I use Karlson type tweeters (slotted pipe plus good 1" format compression drivers) too which give great bang for a buck and very good sound - but somewhat different directivity characteristics than from constant directivity waveguide.
Harmonic distortion of a cheap compression driver (BMD440) on a 6.5" slotted pipe at 3KHz sine and good level is less than 1/2 of one percent - hihat and cymbals sound quite good. A pair of K-tubes can be made for less than a dollar with plastic pipe. I've used Eminence, P-Audio, Altec, Selenium, Dayton and B&C with them.
Harmonic distortion of a cheap compression driver (BMD440) on a 6.5" slotted pipe at 3KHz sine and good level is less than 1/2 of one percent - hihat and cymbals sound quite good. A pair of K-tubes can be made for less than a dollar with plastic pipe. I've used Eminence, P-Audio, Altec, Selenium, Dayton and B&C with them.
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I also made the slotted Karlson type tweeter horn a few years ago. It sounded surprisingly good and different. That was a fun and interesting project. With the Raals, I feel I have moved up in the world since then. 😛
freddi, how low does the K-tube go comfortably? Can it be used as a super tweeter above (for example) an Eminence psd2013 or Dayton pt250 in the Dayton H812 (or some such similar horn that you know I'm experimenting with). The K-tube looks like it would make a nice helper tweeter with an ASD1001 perhaps?
Zilla - I've used the same "textbook" value Eminence 1K6 crossover as you (that sometimes comes in around 1K2) with compression drivers and a little K-tube. Eminence' 3K5 (more like "2K8") network sums ok with my Delta Pro8a and Dayton D250p on the Transylvania Power Co. K-tube
for proof of concept you can make a rolled paper tube - about 5.5" long - tape it together, and onto your ASD1001 - cut the slot with scissors so it looks like the tube below. Elevate that tube about 20-30 degrees above horizontal.
Your homemade tube may sound better with the Dayton than the waveguide - but getting it mounted onto a open baffle and tilted up might be difficult.
I don't know about a single cap highpass - I'd need to pull an ASD1001 off one of my Beta10cx in K10 or Karlsonator to find out. I do need to swap drivers in the Karlsonator 12 so may pull ASD1001S tonight and see how it does with just a capacitor highpass. With any speaker whose input impedance has significant variation or Z peak at resonance, there's always the likelihood of interaction with a "first order" highpass - so you might really get cutoff an octave below what would happen if the tweeter had dead flat Z.
You might make a shorter tube for helper use - I've not tried it and don't know where my scissors are - I use a Dremel to cut the slot in PVC and ABS tubes.
Karlson stuff can be great - if done wrong - it can be awful - such as a set of XKi given to me - small cavity + hard plywood = peaking in the 600Hz range then a dip. The regular Karlson type works well in the 1.7 cubic foot external bulk range upwards. K12 and K15 are good - Karlson made a K18. My tall K18 sounds good as a 2-way with internal K-tube tweeter.
GregB's Karlsonator in general are lower tuned than traditional K so extend lower, have less punch. Even the little Vifa TC9 sounds good in a mini-Karlsonator - but mine is foam board which seems acoustically transparent compared to plywood - maybe that reduces cavity Q problems (?)
for proof of concept you can make a rolled paper tube - about 5.5" long - tape it together, and onto your ASD1001 - cut the slot with scissors so it looks like the tube below. Elevate that tube about 20-30 degrees above horizontal.
Your homemade tube may sound better with the Dayton than the waveguide - but getting it mounted onto a open baffle and tilted up might be difficult.
I don't know about a single cap highpass - I'd need to pull an ASD1001 off one of my Beta10cx in K10 or Karlsonator to find out. I do need to swap drivers in the Karlsonator 12 so may pull ASD1001S tonight and see how it does with just a capacitor highpass. With any speaker whose input impedance has significant variation or Z peak at resonance, there's always the likelihood of interaction with a "first order" highpass - so you might really get cutoff an octave below what would happen if the tweeter had dead flat Z.
You might make a shorter tube for helper use - I've not tried it and don't know where my scissors are - I use a Dremel to cut the slot in PVC and ABS tubes.
Karlson stuff can be great - if done wrong - it can be awful - such as a set of XKi given to me - small cavity + hard plywood = peaking in the 600Hz range then a dip. The regular Karlson type works well in the 1.7 cubic foot external bulk range upwards. K12 and K15 are good - Karlson made a K18. My tall K18 sounds good as a 2-way with internal K-tube tweeter.
GregB's Karlsonator in general are lower tuned than traditional K so extend lower, have less punch. Even the little Vifa TC9 sounds good in a mini-Karlsonator - but mine is foam board which seems acoustically transparent compared to plywood - maybe that reduces cavity Q problems (?)
Wow that is good value. Do you find they have same issue as the ML panels; ruthless with poorly recorded material?
Not as ruthless as the Martin Logan CLS and a powerful Electrokompaniet amplifer and a €1000 preamp. It was highpassed to a active subwoofer at 80Hz. I suspect, with my limited knowledge, that the infamous ruthlessness of electrostatic panels stems from that most fullrange electrostatic panel designs are highpassed to low, where a regular midwoofer would do a better job. The mini panels are smaller and will only do 250-20kHz, barely, but that can MAYBE be solved with a larger baffle, absorption panels on the wall behind to decrease cancellation that could start already at 1kHz, and better room placement. When I divide my panels at 250Hz to the 15" JBL woofers, something is missing, even if I increase the EQ between 250-400Hz on a 25 watt DIY Firstwatt F5 with B1 preamp. I was worried 25W mosfet amp would be too weak, but I use 30% of the B1 for normal listening levels and it is not a high gain preamp. I have not had time to work with them a lot. I actually hurt my hands in a bicycle accident, so I will wait to build baffles and cabinets for them, so to me they can only get better. Not that it matters. If you have a good midwoofer, that has no problems up to 400-500Hz, you are fine.
The problem with a electrostatic panel with a thin membrane is to mate it with a suitable woofer with equal speed. The JBL 15" combo sounds nice, but I know it can sound nicer with a 8" driver. I have tried the JBL 15" together with a Fane Studio 8M, and even if the design was not perfect, I got better lower mids. But the Fane does not go as low as the JBL, so I need the JBL as well, and at the same time - the JBL is not a subwoofer, so I also need a sub. My minidsp 4x10HD 2x5 channel digital filter is running out of channels! My attempts at using the JBL 15" and the Fane 8" together was a failure, because I lost clarity in both drivers. They need their own amplifier. Or a better passive crossover designer. 😛
I agree, the price was not too bad.
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a re-tuned Karlson, although not normally a subwoofer, seems to work well per Exemplar. Use two 3"Id pvc right angle elbows on an adapter plate (if working with an original Karlson) - treat it like a 6th order reflex system with Q=2 at 30Hz 2nd order highpass filter plus use Alec 515 or 416 types - (low fs, low qts)
Non-voice-coil tweeters have much worse intermodulation distortion than common tweeters, is it true?
Hi,
I would like to know : does an AMT or a Ribon tweeter keep all its qualities if too much atenuated by a serie resistor to match its impedance with the midrange unit ?
What are yours experience with RAAL ribons or AMT technology with that please ?😕
Finaly, any mid-tweeter able to go at a 1000 Hz crossover ? Compression drivers the Kings here ?
I would like to know : does an AMT or a Ribon tweeter keep all its qualities if too much atenuated by a serie resistor to match its impedance with the midrange unit ?
What are yours experience with RAAL ribons or AMT technology with that please ?😕
Finaly, any mid-tweeter able to go at a 1000 Hz crossover ? Compression drivers the Kings here ?
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Why would an AMT loose (all/some?) of its qualities if it is attenuated (padded down) provided the design of the x/o takes the series R into consideration? BTW the padding down is not to match the impedance but to match SPL levels of mids and tweets.
Hi Boden;
Yes, spl not impedance...
Well, I don't know that's why I ask ! Some seems to say a resistor should be avoided before a tweeter, most say : no problem ! So I ask myself if it is the same to put 1 ohms resistor on 10 ohms for instance when it coms to keep the sounding qualities (subjectiv) of a tweeter (very smalls variation of signal). Does the quantity of attenuation matters in this band where the microdetails matters ?.... and could it be a diference between the different technology big enough to matter ? (i.e. : hearable) ?
Newbie (Eternal) question...
P.S. : question is: is it important or not when chosing one of those expensive tweeter unit? If a passive design, one question comes : what is the amount of resistor and micro farad in serie on the signal before the sota unit ???? (so the quality of each of these passive parts)
Yes, spl not impedance...
Well, I don't know that's why I ask ! Some seems to say a resistor should be avoided before a tweeter, most say : no problem ! So I ask myself if it is the same to put 1 ohms resistor on 10 ohms for instance when it coms to keep the sounding qualities (subjectiv) of a tweeter (very smalls variation of signal). Does the quantity of attenuation matters in this band where the microdetails matters ?.... and could it be a diference between the different technology big enough to matter ? (i.e. : hearable) ?
Newbie (Eternal) question...
P.S. : question is: is it important or not when chosing one of those expensive tweeter unit? If a passive design, one question comes : what is the amount of resistor and micro farad in serie on the signal before the sota unit ???? (so the quality of each of these passive parts)
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the problem I have with evaluating tweeters is that my ears are super sensitive to high range so I might hear what would normally be a great tweeter but if the source is not super clean, the tweet sounds...not so good.
Does this happen to anyone else?
Does this happen to anyone else?
my limited experience is the source matters A LOT ! (last ten years working on the digital sources on 3 speakers as benchmark (two good amplifiers only) and the best speaker being a Boston Lynnfield 400L... sorry Mr Atkins, I'm not agree with you about the Boston Lynnfields') - (two others speakers are Kef 104/2 ref and Proac 15 ; sorry not high efficienty speakers : my next when finding a good not too much expensive HF 3 ways (above 95 w/m)
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Yes. Some drivers are so clear that they expose the artifice of the recording of the live performance. Like a HD image that shows up flaws that would be otherwise hidden.
I have found this with planars, AMT's and some ribbons. Excellent recordings are great to listen to but I dont want to severly limit my music collection or listen to audiophile recording poop.
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