Absolutely re the conjecture. Although both are in stock at Falcon; I'm afraid I didn't think to check other suppliers. Apologies. As I say though, I wasn't actually thinking about this as a 'design' as such.
That needs qualifying. You can indeed take the Satori tweeter that low, or lower, if you don't mind a shot of HD2 < 2KHz (which isn't particularly audible in this instance). However, you do need to pay attention to power-handling of both the tweeter & its partnering midbass: if the latter significantly exceeds it, you need a rethink. This also partly determines XO slopes (LR4 & variations thereof being better in this regard than both lower & higher order slopes) & also, what is often overlooked, the electrical power getting to the thing. In this case, I used a 3rd order electrical to get the phase into line, but it's useful from that POV also.
Thank you for sharing and clarifying the point.
The reminder about power handling is a good point when crossing this low, as it is easy to forget about power handling when playing with simulations.
Typically I try to have the tweeter roll off to be 25-30dbs from it main level down before it approaches the tweeters Fs resonant frequency. I try to simplify and use second order, but infact most of my tweeter circuits end up at 3rd order electrical.
A suggestion for a 8 inch two way following your low Xover point would be a volt 8 inch and Audax HD34 with a Xover at 1.8Khz. This was the third speaker I bought. It was a called a Proac 2, and I miss its energy and bass speed and heft. The treble was passable and the newer version of the audax are better behaved anyway.
The reminder about power handling is a good point when crossing this low, as it is easy to forget about power handling when playing with simulations.
Typically I try to have the tweeter roll off to be 25-30dbs from it main level down before it approaches the tweeters Fs resonant frequency. I try to simplify and use second order, but infact most of my tweeter circuits end up at 3rd order electrical.
A suggestion for a 8 inch two way following your low Xover point would be a volt 8 inch and Audax HD34 with a Xover at 1.8Khz. This was the third speaker I bought. It was a called a Proac 2, and I miss its energy and bass speed and heft. The treble was passable and the newer version of the audax are better behaved anyway.
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Sounds like some good potential re the Volt / Audax. 🙂
Right, making sure you don't overload the tweeter is a major factor when crossing low -especially with midbass units like the Scan, which is quite large as 8in drivers go & can handle a fair bit of power (in relative terms). For the above, electrical power is about 24dB down at measured Fs, acoustic output about 30dB down. It could handle a bit more, accepting a little more HD2, but this is the safer bet.
Right, making sure you don't overload the tweeter is a major factor when crossing low -especially with midbass units like the Scan, which is quite large as 8in drivers go & can handle a fair bit of power (in relative terms). For the above, electrical power is about 24dB down at measured Fs, acoustic output about 30dB down. It could handle a bit more, accepting a little more HD2, but this is the safer bet.
For a LR2 with the Audax H34, a recess will be welcome like with the wave guide for it and some tweakings on the tweeter itself you can found in Troels Gravsen pages. The WG could be a plus to mate the 8"... perhaps ? I.e. what about this time of the vertical Center to center ? At least you know you can go w/o problem till 1 to 1.2 the WL of the crossover point for the centers spacing.
I didn't see sounding review of the poly 8" Volt here though.
I didn't see sounding review of the poly 8" Volt here though.
I would certainly like to see third party measurements of the Volt. AFAIK, it is not exactly a cheap unit.
One can wonder if an Audiotechnology or a SB Textreme is not a better choice at near close price ? At least the first in a same family of material.
Volt BM228.8 8" Bass/Midrange Driver vs Compagnie Acoustique de Belgique, Compacbel vs Compagnie Acoustique de Belgique, Compacbel (SB Textreme:scroll down))
JANTZEN AUDIO Wave Guide Audax TW034X0 (The pair) - Audiophonics
Volt BM228.8 8" Bass/Midrange Driver vs Compagnie Acoustique de Belgique, Compacbel vs Compagnie Acoustique de Belgique, Compacbel (SB Textreme:scroll down))
JANTZEN AUDIO Wave Guide Audax TW034X0 (The pair) - Audiophonics
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I think for Studio and day to day monitoring duties the Volt BM228 would edge it. Also has an AES rating of 180 watts
I am not sure how the textreme satori 19 would would handle a studio environment when used day in day out as it is spec'd at 60-70 Watts.
I am hoping that the textreme may have more micro detail than the papyrus cone. All speculation at this point in time, as I haven't heard it
The papyrus satori 19 sounds good and does have adequate bass in some old test cabs of mine. I am hoping that the texteme drivers as Sound compass suggest looses the suspension dip at 1Khz.
In isolation the papyrus cone doesn't sound bad but it just looks plain wrong when measurement's are produced as in my cab there is currently a 800 Hz peak waiting to break out of control, this being followed by a dip, is a bit to much of a roller coaster in that area. So i need to change baffle for it or add a notch, which I try to avoid.
I am not sure how the textreme satori 19 would would handle a studio environment when used day in day out as it is spec'd at 60-70 Watts.
I am hoping that the textreme may have more micro detail than the papyrus cone. All speculation at this point in time, as I haven't heard it
The papyrus satori 19 sounds good and does have adequate bass in some old test cabs of mine. I am hoping that the texteme drivers as Sound compass suggest looses the suspension dip at 1Khz.
In isolation the papyrus cone doesn't sound bad but it just looks plain wrong when measurement's are produced as in my cab there is currently a 800 Hz peak waiting to break out of control, this being followed by a dip, is a bit to much of a roller coaster in that area. So i need to change baffle for it or add a notch, which I try to avoid.
If a brief OT is allowed, 9 times out of 10, I would say it's a cone edge resonance rather than the surround / suspension per se. Easiest way of checking that is to look at manufacturers like Seas, SB, Dayton &c. who produce midbass drivers of a given size & general design in a few different cone materials. The metal cone units generally show narry a trace in that ~800Hz - 1.5KHz region, implying the cause is with the cone rather than the surround itself. The impedance curve is usually the fastest way of spotting that, even if it's not too visible in the FR -just look for a deviation in that region from the overall curve trend.
Im at the Capital Audiofest in Washington and Im not too impressed by what I am hearing. So far the best room for me was Salk Speakers. They have a 7 inch 2 way Purify/Satori Be tweeter sounded very nice. I liked it better than the more expensive larger SS 9.5.
The Monacor's not bad, especially for the money; depends how much you want to run a higher filter frequency though a la Harbeth & BBC type designs. IIRC it has a breakup mode around 3.5KHz, which is a bit low if you want to be crossing > 2KHz. If you're happy to shift to a lower crossover frequency though, worth a look.
I know Harbeth doesn’t use aluminum cones but the RS225-8 should get a close look. It’s absolutely flat and well behaved and has a breakup way up at 7kHz which is easy to filter out. It’s also very low distortion. IMO, it’s one of the best 8in woofers at any price. Very easy to integrate with a tweeter or mid range.
Here is also a design that I personally find quite intriguing Открытые проекты | difton
And the simulation on that Seas woofer in the "improved transmission line alignment" thread looked quite intriguing.
An Improved Transmission Line Alignment.
And the simulation on that Seas woofer in the "improved transmission line alignment" thread looked quite intriguing.
An Improved Transmission Line Alignment.
diyiggy; Is Aurum Cantus any good? I looked at some of the drivers and you have to be careful because of the TS parameters they will not go very low. I am using a OB sub so I dont need to get way down, 45-50 hz is fine.
Jeff Bagby loved the 5in unit in his Continuum as I recall. However, AC sometimes seem to have an issue with QC / QA. Jim & Curt pulled their Bordeaux because of consistency problems with the AMT tweeter they used, and back when he was doing driver testing, Zaph noted the same with the 6 1/2in AC180 he had in, and wasn't especially impressed with the 8in AC200MKII either -not a bad response if you're pitching for a relatively low crossover frequency, but HD in the ~600Hz - 700Hz region isn't so hot.
Attachments
Fair bit of mission creep here... 😀
Открытые проекты | difton
That's an interesting project. I have played with similar stuff myself. Standard 3.5kHz 3.9uF/0.33mH crossover by the look of it.
I used first order with impedance correction on the bass, with the cheaper Morel CAT 298 tweeter, but negative polarity again.
We had a look at the Seas CA22RNX a while back. Pano got involved IIRC.
The 2.2mH/6.8uF seemed to work well enough with the lowish inductance SEAS woofer. Dissi had a look at it on sim. Said it was OK.
Открытые проекты | difton
That's an interesting project. I have played with similar stuff myself. Standard 3.5kHz 3.9uF/0.33mH crossover by the look of it.
I used first order with impedance correction on the bass, with the cheaper Morel CAT 298 tweeter, but negative polarity again.
We had a look at the Seas CA22RNX a while back. Pano got involved IIRC.
The 2.2mH/6.8uF seemed to work well enough with the lowish inductance SEAS woofer. Dissi had a look at it on sim. Said it was OK.
All the Harbeth crossovers I've seen are very complicated, so it makes you think the drivers aren't very well-behaved at all.
The Monacor SPH-220HQ looks very smooth in the measurements I've seen, as does the Seas CA22RNX & CA22RNY.
The Monacor SPH-220HQ looks very smooth in the measurements I've seen, as does the Seas CA22RNX & CA22RNY.
@Jimbones
Scottmose said it all and indeed it was the mk I that had good review. The Jeff bagby 6" Aurum Cantus 2 ways also was, is, quite famous for its good sound.
If one really wants a polypro, the good one from SB Acoustic has really low distorsion in the 6" size : see Elsimore project where one of the iteration was with these 6"polypro. It has not symetric motor a la SCAN SPEAK Revelator serie, Wavecore or Audiotechnology. But certainly good enough at seinng distorsion and the price is quite low for a good driver. More suited than all the Al cone that has bigger break-ups you have to deal with for a two ways midwoofer. And the topic is about plastic cone driver. Monacor is often underated cause mostly european aviability so the stars of the loudspeaker diy fan club don't use them often. Maybe you can see them in the german DIY local area.
It's really about what you can afford in a driver but we know it's firstly a matter of design and effort in the filter. At reading Stereophile, Harbeth loudspeakers have their loudspeakers voiced by modeling the spl curve (the famous BBC dip that certainly don't excite too much the room in that area where the ears are more acurate), they are not time and/or phase coincident as write Atkinson measurements reviewer.
You may have better luck and certainly better result with some good kits : Heissman, Audioexcite, Jeff Bagbys (RIP), J Holtz & friends, not saying the ones you can read here.
But if it's for the fun first, better indeed to construct one from scratch (it's time consuming, slow, more expensive than a kit but it's a hobby and you learn things and have your personal proud to have made something).
What you certainly like as you said it is a dark sound or dark background (hifi and vocabulary is a mess!), forgiven speakers à la old Kef (nomex cone) and a BBC dip or a sligthy falling curve towards the highs. This can be made with all drivers.
Just my two cents, I'm a beginner.
Scottmose said it all and indeed it was the mk I that had good review. The Jeff bagby 6" Aurum Cantus 2 ways also was, is, quite famous for its good sound.
If one really wants a polypro, the good one from SB Acoustic has really low distorsion in the 6" size : see Elsimore project where one of the iteration was with these 6"polypro. It has not symetric motor a la SCAN SPEAK Revelator serie, Wavecore or Audiotechnology. But certainly good enough at seinng distorsion and the price is quite low for a good driver. More suited than all the Al cone that has bigger break-ups you have to deal with for a two ways midwoofer. And the topic is about plastic cone driver. Monacor is often underated cause mostly european aviability so the stars of the loudspeaker diy fan club don't use them often. Maybe you can see them in the german DIY local area.
It's really about what you can afford in a driver but we know it's firstly a matter of design and effort in the filter. At reading Stereophile, Harbeth loudspeakers have their loudspeakers voiced by modeling the spl curve (the famous BBC dip that certainly don't excite too much the room in that area where the ears are more acurate), they are not time and/or phase coincident as write Atkinson measurements reviewer.
You may have better luck and certainly better result with some good kits : Heissman, Audioexcite, Jeff Bagbys (RIP), J Holtz & friends, not saying the ones you can read here.
But if it's for the fun first, better indeed to construct one from scratch (it's time consuming, slow, more expensive than a kit but it's a hobby and you learn things and have your personal proud to have made something).
What you certainly like as you said it is a dark sound or dark background (hifi and vocabulary is a mess!), forgiven speakers à la old Kef (nomex cone) and a BBC dip or a sligthy falling curve towards the highs. This can be made with all drivers.
Just my two cents, I'm a beginner.
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