• Disclaimer: This Vendor's Forum is a paid-for commercial area. Unlike the rest of diyAudio, the Vendor has complete control of what may or may not be posted in this forum. If you wish to discuss technical matters outside the bounds of what is permitted by the Vendor, please use the non-commercial areas of diyAudio to do so.

Wire From Ext. Crossover to Speaker

rich2ch

Member
2013-02-25 1:04 pm
I used a 16 gage twisted pair of upocc copper with teflon to wire the base module of my Newform Research 645R speakers from the binding post to the 2 woofers. I have moved the crossover outside the speaker. Would it be best practice to use the same 16 ga twisted pair to wire from the external crossover to the speakers? If not do you have any good suggestions for this wire?
 
I would suggest using the same type and gauge wire to the woofers (16 awg solid cu/teflon).

It's been a long time but the oem tweeter capacitor (11uf) is located inside the cabinet...I just can't remember where it was located (glued to the back of the binding post plates?). In any case, this is a good cap to upgrade (if you haven't done so). I moved this capacitor out of the cabinet too. I like the Auricap for the tweeter (11 or 12uf).

Also, I found that the quality and gauge of the wire feeding the tweeter has a pretty profound effect on the overall sound of the speaker. I played around with all kinds of wire and finally settled on a braided teflon cu (6 strands per leg (+ & -) of 24 awg/teflon/cu). :)
 
Sorry, I missed a part of your question! I will be wiring from the external crossover to the woofer box and the tweeters with 2 separate cables.

Rich,

Since you are already using solid 16ga, I would continue to do so. However, I would use a four braid by which you will have 2 x 16ga for each polarity. Assuming you are still using a single cap position for the ribbon, I would wire it directly on the outside of the speaker. I would use a twisted pair of solid 23ga UPOCC Sliver with a pair of 18ga solid UPOCC Copper in Teflon reversed helix around the outside. The first pic I attached merely shows an externally mounted/connected high-pass cap on a custom Newform speaker. The second shows the wire configuration I recommended for the high-pass.
 

Attachments

  • hpcap.JPG
    hpcap.JPG
    53.9 KB · Views: 568
  • HP four braid.jpg
    HP four braid.jpg
    392.2 KB · Views: 562
Hello,

Welcome to our forum.

It's been a long time but the oem tweeter capacitor (11uf) is located inside the cabinet...I just can't remember where it was located (glued to the back of the binding post plates?). In any case, this is a good cap to upgrade (if you haven't done so). I moved this capacitor out of the cabinet too. I like the Auricap for the tweeter (11 or 12uf).

I'm sure that Auricap sounded better than the stock cap, but that would not be my first choice. The Auri is rolled on top. This does not play well with the Newform ribbon. This is probably why so many used Hovlands. The Hovland is a very bright cap, and also not my first choice, but it is a much better choice for that ribbon.
 
Hello,

Welcome to our forum.



I'm sure that Auricap sounded better than the stock cap, but that would not be my first choice. The Auri is rolled on top. This does not play well with the Newform ribbon. This is probably why so many used Hovlands. The Hovland is a very bright cap, and also not my first choice, but it is a much better choice for that ribbon.

I didn't try the Hovlands but IME over a long period of tweaking and tinkering, capacitor picking usually turns out to be a matter of taste. With the Newforms, I started off by replacing the stock tweeter cap with an Audiocap Theta... very (very) nice but a maybe a little too smooth for my tastes. Next up was the Sonicap Gen 1 which proved a little too bright (bypassing it with a Vishay 1837 helped) and then I tried the Auricap...and that was the ticket. Just the right amount of detail and musicality that I was looking for. All of these caps are excellent but my second choice in this application...the Theta (bypassed with a .1uf Multicap RTX).
 

rich2ch

Member
2013-02-25 1:04 pm
I tried the auricap and then switched to a vcap (I think) years ago and it is a little bright for my taste at times but usually it is ok. I would like to change my crossover so that it is easy to swap out caps perhaps with binding posts or something (any suggestions?) to make it easier to test others out.

Jeff, are you suggesting the braided wire inside the cabinet as well? I will have to study the wording about the braiding pattern to see if I can understand what you have suggested.

Thanks for your help.
 
Rich,

I assume you have run two dedicated pairs, one to each woofer inside the cabinet. Not, daisy chained like the factory does it? If this is the case, there is no need to do anything different inside the cabinet. I'd assume you twisted the pair going to each woofer already. I recommended two 16ga to "each" polarity from the external XO to the bass cabinet, so you will have four conductors. I recommended a common four braid. Google "braid four", and you will see examples of four braid with hair, string, etc...

I assume you are going from the XO (single cap) directly to the back of the ribbon? There is no need to run anything through the box for the high-pass. I would use the wire I described in my last post. That wire is constructed by making a twisted pair of 23ga Silver. Then winding two 18ga Copper conductors around the outside of the twisted 23ga pair. One of the 18ga conductors will go clockwise around the twisted pair, while the other 18ga goes counter-clockwise. They will be wound at the same time so that the same 18ga is crossing under the other 18ga on one side of the cable. On the other side of the cable, the 18ga conductors switch positions as far as how they stack. The one on the bottom on one side will become the one on top on the other side.

I have no recommendation for a fixture to switch caps in and out. If you are using vcaps, I assume it is the OIMP? The TFTF would get awfully expensive. Please advise.
 
I didn't try the Hovlands but IME over a long period of tweaking and tinkering, capacitor picking usually turns out to be a matter of taste. With the Newforms, I started off by replacing the stock tweeter cap with an Audiocap Theta... very (very) nice but a maybe a little too smooth for my tastes. Next up was the Sonicap Gen 1 which proved a little too bright (bypassing it with a Vishay 1837 helped) and then I tried the Auricap...and that was the ticket. Just the right amount of detail and musicality that I was looking for. All of these caps are excellent but my second choice in this application...the Theta (bypassed with a .1uf Multicap RTX).

I agree regarding "a matter of choice". So what are the chances that someone else would share your taste, or mine for that matter. All we can do is guide with broad generalizations. I appreciate your opinion given your experience with this speaker. My experience is based off of modifying or selling modification kits to over 200 owners of the 645. In this, I have had near 200 opinions with all different kinds of equipment and rooms.

My cost no object choice...any good Teflon (Aura-T, Platinum, V-cap, etc...). Second choice...Mundorf Silver/Oil. Third...RTX. Fourth...Sonicap bypassed with 0.1uF to 1uF. Fifth...a single value of Sonicap G1.

I would like to point out that I do believe the RTX helped the Theta, but I too feel that combo is a tad slow and dark. While you may have preferred the 1837 bypass, I can guarantee it made the G1 brighter.

Again, I appreciate your input, but I do not wish to go off topic. Feel free to start another thread if you would like.
 

rich2ch

Member
2013-02-25 1:04 pm
Jeff,

I did use the OIMP VCap 12 uf. It generally sounds pretty good but is a bit rolled off. It took so long to break in the cap that I don't think I could really make a good comparison between the Vcap and Theta. It would be nice to get more HF extension but I would not want it to get brighter or harsh. My space is on the bright side with hardwood floors and hard plaster.

Thank you for the info on the wire braiding. That was a good clarification. How much extra length of do you need to make the braid for about a 5 foot cable?

Guild,

Was your 6 wire cable braided in any particular pattern?

Thanks,

Rich2ch
 
Jeff,

I did use the OIMP VCap 12 uf. It generally sounds pretty good but is a bit rolled off. It took so long to break in the cap that I don't think I could really make a good comparison between the Vcap and Theta. It would be nice to get more HF extension but I would not want it to get brighter or harsh. My space is on the bright side with hardwood floors and hard plaster.

Thank you for the info on the wire braiding. That was a good clarification. How much extra length of do you need to make the braid for about a 5 foot cable?

Guild,

Was your 6 wire cable braided in any particular pattern?

Thanks,

Rich2ch

Actually it's a 4 strand braid but with 3 wires per strand, so you end up with 6 conductors per polarity. Kind of hard to describe, but you start by dividing the wires into 4 groups of 3 and perform a Milloit braid (see link). Think of and treat each 3 wire strand as a flat ribbon.

When you finish the braid you will have two counter-wound helixes (looking something like the XLO interconnect shown below). There will be 4 "ribbons" of 3 wires each. Connect into two polarities (+ & -) as shown in the Milloit link below...only with 6 wires each.

Patent US2958724 - ELECTRICAL CONNECTOR - Google Patents

XLO
 
Jeff,

I did use the OIMP VCap 12 uf. It generally sounds pretty good but is a bit rolled off. It took so long to break in the cap that I don't think I could really make a good comparison between the Vcap and Theta. It would be nice to get more HF extension but I would not want it to get brighter or harsh. My space is on the bright side with hardwood floors and hard plaster.

Thanks,
Rich2ch

Both the OIMP and the Theta are soft on top. Given your situation, the best bang for the buck would probably be a 10uF/200V Sonicap G1 bypassed with a 2.2uF Mundorf Silver/Oil.
 
Actually it's a 4 strand braid but with 3 wires per strand, so you end up with 6 conductors per polarity. Kind of hard to describe, but you start by dividing the wires into 4 groups of 3 and perform a Milloit braid (see link). Think of and treat each 3 wire strand as a flat ribbon.

When you finish the braid you will have two counter-wound helixes (looking something like the XLO interconnect shown below). There will be 4 "ribbons" of 3 wires each. Connect into two polarities (+ & -) as shown in the Milloit link below...only with 6 wires each.

Patent US2958724 - ELECTRICAL CONNECTOR - Google Patents

XLO

This is the same braid we are referring to whether you happen to use 2, 4, 6, or more conductors. Thanks for the link Bob. I'm glad that patent has long since expired ;)

Rich,

There are a couple of ways to braid four. For the low-pass, I do not care how you do it. Here is another link: How to braid with four strands - YouTube For the high-pass, you will use the same configuration as Bob has linked to, but only two 18ga conductors are involved. They will wrap back and forth about a simple twisted pair (23ga) that runs thru the center.
 
This is the same braid we are referring to whether you happen to use 2, 4, 6, or more conductors. Thanks for the link Bob. I'm glad that patent has long since expired ;)

As a point of interest regarding the Milloit braid. As you can see from the patent what you have with this braid is 2 twisted pair woven together and Mr. Milloit found that the greatest noise rejection occurred by connecting one polarity from each pair (ie, 11 to 13 & 12 to 14). I assume this is true but have no way of knowing for sure...just passing it along for what it's worth.

Also, this is the same braid that Kimber uses in the very popular and excellent Hero interconnect. Interestingly (from what I've read), they connect it in parallel (ie..12 - 13 & 11 - 14). Again, don't know this for a fact having never examined the Kimber Hero connections. :)
 
Bob,

When using that particular braid, I too would us 11&14, and 12&13 for each polarity. However, this will depend on the freq of the the common mod of noise you wish to reject. And, the ratio of reactance that is more conducive to your desired results. Such as...will it be speaker wire, or interconnect...etc...