Those Focal inverted domes have always used a small diameter voicecoil in a not very advanced motor design. I can tell you from factual experience that the cost to change from the Ti dome to go to the Be is $35.00 US dollars for the diaphragms, I have purchased these from Brush Wellman, Materion their old name. I always found the Focal drivers to be very fatiguing and they had some horrid high frequency breakup modes with the composite and Ti diaphragms that the Be should have taken care of.
I do know the owner of Orca here in the USA, Kimon Bellas, we have been friendly for many years and I do know his in house engineer. I don't think that Wilson does anything but cosmetic changes to the drivers he uses, they aren't really custom besides visual changes. I don't think the Focal drivers have any inherent superiority to the Scan Speak line of drivers, they are nothing special really, just marketing hype which sells as we can see from the JMLabs prices. Buyer beware as always.
I do know the owner of Orca here in the USA, Kimon Bellas, we have been friendly for many years and I do know his in house engineer. I don't think that Wilson does anything but cosmetic changes to the drivers he uses, they aren't really custom besides visual changes. I don't think the Focal drivers have any inherent superiority to the Scan Speak line of drivers, they are nothing special really, just marketing hype which sells as we can see from the JMLabs prices. Buyer beware as always.
I think that whether Wilson uses custom drivers or not is kind of a moot point. I am confident a DIY'er could make a speaker that sounds as good for a fractional cost shopping at the same two online stores.
Even if he did have "custom" drivers, in volume they are super cheap. OK, so maybe he's got a high Le coil. << shrug >> I'm not so enamored of any of the Wilson's I'd wish to replicate it that closely anyway.
Best,
Erik
Even if he did have "custom" drivers, in volume they are super cheap. OK, so maybe he's got a high Le coil. << shrug >> I'm not so enamored of any of the Wilson's I'd wish to replicate it that closely anyway.
Best,
Erik
The VX stands for coated paper, WX is the Rohacell glassfibre cone. WA used only WX, as far as I know.
This is an impedance measurement of a Focal Be tweeter (6 years ago)
from car audio program I had used to make a buddy of mine a home DIY
version of an Utopia like speaker, only the rest of the drivers were 21V2
and 5W 4211.
The sound is very refined with this tweeter, but so is with any other good
quality driver.
from car audio program I had used to make a buddy of mine a home DIY
version of an Utopia like speaker, only the rest of the drivers were 21V2
and 5W 4211.
The sound is very refined with this tweeter, but so is with any other good
quality driver.
Attachments
Well given its price I'd certainly expect better! Those are some serious impedance wiggles at 2.7kHz and 4.5kHz. Most likely poor venting beneath the dome/surround. I always thought that the focal Be domes had too small a motor/chamber going on in the rear shots of the driver for optimum performance.
I am sure it can be made to sound nice.
I am sure it can be made to sound nice.
The \earlier Focal tweeters did not have a vented pole piece, I'm not sure that the new ones are any different?
Kind, not sure if it was a matter of motor changes or case. Wilson's Focal tweeters relied on customization of the rear tweeter chamber. My guess is that the tweeter motor itself was always an open back design, and that they are just making a big deal that they are using a thick piece of particle board to glue together two MDF tubes in the Sopra.
It doesn't seem to do them much audible good though.
Best,
Erik
It doesn't seem to do them much audible good though.
Best,
Erik
Probably, he found that the transmission of vibrations to the components provoked not so excellent results, hence the use of resins.
Some others put the Xo outside, in a box.
Still, lots of binding posts & cables to mess with 🙄
Wilson has got something to hide and he probably wants consumers
to think this is sort of something special that needs to be protected
from the curious eyes but DIYers know better. We know there is no
XO filter secrets.
to think this is sort of something special that needs to be protected
from the curious eyes but DIYers know better. We know there is no
XO filter secrets.
Well in that case his speakers really ARE a bargain..... (hahahaha)
Sorry, I really should stop acting like a TV infotainer/commentator who ascribes evil intentions to the most benign of actions. That certainly is one possible explanation. I think as a whole though any manufacturer wants to keep customers away from the cost to manufacture and focused on the perceived value. Wilson is doing nothing wrong there, but he has reached pretty miraculous levels of value vs. cost there.
Still, if anyone were to take one apart, I'd certainly enjoy looking inside. 🙂
Best,
Erik
So I just noticed something odd. Stereophile routinely publishes close-mic driver measurements for speakers that are reviewed but this data is missing from the XLF and Sabrina measurements, without explanation. There are some bass measurements, but they are cut off before the crossover filters become visible. It's fine if a vendor insists on limiting measurements, but I would expect disclosure of the agreement to be part of the review.
While again, it is evidence they are not being open about their design but it's quite common and not unethical. What would be unethical is if reviews for the speaker were made under different arrangements which prevented the same standards from being applied without informing the readers.
Best,
Erik
While again, it is evidence they are not being open about their design but it's quite common and not unethical. What would be unethical is if reviews for the speaker were made under different arrangements which prevented the same standards from being applied without informing the readers.
Best,
Erik
my 2 cent:
There is or sure more to good sound than chosing the right drivers. So copying the drivers from Wilson and expecing the same sound is not going to happen, stock drivers or not.
The cost of the speaker of course also need to cover the development cost. It is for sure not for free to have a number of expert engineers running around ... and if you go the full length and want to ensure that all speakers will have same specs, and sound the same, there is a lot to it ...
Developing and manufactoring the cabinets/boxes for Wilson is of course a lot more expensive than just using ordinary MDF and to be honest I think the material used is much more suited than MDF
Build quality is another matter .... you can argue about the design, but the finish is not surpassed by many ...
On the other hand. I have heard the Sophia 2 in a smaller room, and it is simply one of the best sound experiences I've had. I heard the same speaker a year later in a much bigger room, and it had nothing of the magic at all ... good but not much more .... and the equipment was the same kind just a lot more expensive ... so can't really have been that.
The room and placement has a lot to do with the sound .... it's simple acoustics 😉 .... and is probably as important as the drivers and filter ....
Is Wilson worth the money ...... we'll is a shirt from Boss worth the money ..... you pay for the excelent quality but for sure also for the brand ....
I think Wilson has been one of the quiding companies into good sound, and if you have a lot of money it is not a bad choice .... but in a DIY view, nothing this expensive is worth it, and it of course also takes away to fun of DIY 🙂
There is or sure more to good sound than chosing the right drivers. So copying the drivers from Wilson and expecing the same sound is not going to happen, stock drivers or not.
The cost of the speaker of course also need to cover the development cost. It is for sure not for free to have a number of expert engineers running around ... and if you go the full length and want to ensure that all speakers will have same specs, and sound the same, there is a lot to it ...
Developing and manufactoring the cabinets/boxes for Wilson is of course a lot more expensive than just using ordinary MDF and to be honest I think the material used is much more suited than MDF
Build quality is another matter .... you can argue about the design, but the finish is not surpassed by many ...
On the other hand. I have heard the Sophia 2 in a smaller room, and it is simply one of the best sound experiences I've had. I heard the same speaker a year later in a much bigger room, and it had nothing of the magic at all ... good but not much more .... and the equipment was the same kind just a lot more expensive ... so can't really have been that.
The room and placement has a lot to do with the sound .... it's simple acoustics 😉 .... and is probably as important as the drivers and filter ....
Is Wilson worth the money ...... we'll is a shirt from Boss worth the money ..... you pay for the excelent quality but for sure also for the brand ....
I think Wilson has been one of the quiding companies into good sound, and if you have a lot of money it is not a bad choice .... but in a DIY view, nothing this expensive is worth it, and it of course also takes away to fun of DIY 🙂
Baldin,
Thanks, that's interesting. I've heard a few Wilson demo's over the past two years since moving to San Francisco, but always in very nice, but large, demo rooms. Perhaps someday I'll get to hear them in a more intimate space where they can really shine. Which reminds me that it's time to go harass my local stereo dealers. 🙂
Best,
Erik
Thanks, that's interesting. I've heard a few Wilson demo's over the past two years since moving to San Francisco, but always in very nice, but large, demo rooms. Perhaps someday I'll get to hear them in a more intimate space where they can really shine. Which reminds me that it's time to go harass my local stereo dealers. 🙂
Best,
Erik
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Hi Bill,
That explains why things like polar responses are nearly impossible with the XLF, but with the Sabrina it does not since John Atkinson makes no mention except how heavy it was to put on his measurement platform, meaning it hurt, but was possible.
I surely do not understand most things about speaker testing, but I would expect that close-microphone, time gated testing was what is normally used for speaker driver measurements such as the Vandersteen. I will have to learn how it's possible that close-mic testing is possible for some of the bass, and the bass port but not the mid and treble drivers. That's kind of backwards from what I would expect, so I hope I can learn something that will help me release my next (and only) mega-buck speakers. 🙂
Best,
Erik
That explains why things like polar responses are nearly impossible with the XLF, but with the Sabrina it does not since John Atkinson makes no mention except how heavy it was to put on his measurement platform, meaning it hurt, but was possible.
I surely do not understand most things about speaker testing, but I would expect that close-microphone, time gated testing was what is normally used for speaker driver measurements such as the Vandersteen. I will have to learn how it's possible that close-mic testing is possible for some of the bass, and the bass port but not the mid and treble drivers. That's kind of backwards from what I would expect, so I hope I can learn something that will help me release my next (and only) mega-buck speakers. 🙂
Best,
Erik
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A dome tweeter no matter how well done is kinda weak solution to carry the HF burden of such a big speaker on high power with low distortion I would think.
I must be missing something. The normal polars are there on the sabrina review in figures 4 and 5? Only thing I can see missing is the room averaged response.
Bill,
That's exactly my point. How can you do polar measurements, and not close-mic? 🙂
Sorry, this is really pretty academic though. It's a wonderful day outside and there are many more important things to do than second and third guess things like this, still the questions remain open. 🙂
Curious, but not life changing puzzles.
Best,
Erik
That's exactly my point. How can you do polar measurements, and not close-mic? 🙂
Sorry, this is really pretty academic though. It's a wonderful day outside and there are many more important things to do than second and third guess things like this, still the questions remain open. 🙂
Curious, but not life changing puzzles.
Best,
Erik
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