If you're good at soldering, perhaps a better way to indulge the DIY bug would be to turn one of your pairs of B&Ws into active speakers. There is an article online somewhere describing how someone did this with the older 801 design (you'll have to Google for it, I'm afraid, as I can't recall the title).
I built and reviewed a Wilmslow kit many years ago for Electronics Today. It was a good kit and the advantage of buying from them was that all the panels were accurately cut and easy to assemble. If you wanted to, it would be easy to add additional bracing to their kits without getting involved in too much woodwork.
AFAIK, if you're anywhere near the Wilmslow store (no longer in Wilmslow), they offer audition facilities for their kits.
It's worth adding that if you get the active crossover right, an active version of your current speakers will probably outshine the passive Wilmslow.
Active Vs. Passive Crossovers
Active Vs. Passive Crossovers
thommy is right I think, although I also think that getting rid of the passive crossovers and going fully active improves the sound. The person I bought my cabs from was using three Quad power amps and an active crossover to very good effect. I am using HH VX series power amps which are studio/broadcast quality and sound fantastic. Which amps do you use thommy?
The other thing that would improve them is if Wilmslow made a transmission line cabinet kit, along the lines of the PMC MB or LB speakers, I believe this would significantly improve the (already very good) bass response.
The other thing that would improve them is if Wilmslow made a transmission line cabinet kit, along the lines of the PMC MB or LB speakers, I believe this would significantly improve the (already very good) bass response.
Bizarrely this is the exact thing I wanted to do last year in September - I posed the question about taking the prestige silver and making it active!
It met with lots of opinion as you can see from the thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...3-way-active-floor-stander-first-project.html
But no-one seemed to think making them active was a good idea as it would be too difficult without knowing exactly the functions of the passive crossover, and would probably be worse sounding.
Please tell me how you made yours active, because I have dreamt about doing this for ages!!!
It met with lots of opinion as you can see from the thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...3-way-active-floor-stander-first-project.html
But no-one seemed to think making them active was a good idea as it would be too difficult without knowing exactly the functions of the passive crossover, and would probably be worse sounding.
Please tell me how you made yours active, because I have dreamt about doing this for ages!!!
I was sorry to read that the cabinets are not brilliant. I had some custom made cabinets from WA and I agree, the fitting together was not what I would expect from CNC cut pieces.
I just took a quick tour through that thread and several good points are made but the comments on transfer functions assume that WA got them exactly correct in the first place. I believe that the original designer is not there any more so extracting this information isn't likely to happen. Some reverse engineering by people who should know showed that there is virtually no EQ applied in the WA x-over and listening to the passive and active version seems to show the same thing.
To make sure you understand the history of this, the original owner of my cabs and crossovers (they were WA's own demonstrators originally) decided to change to the new design of cabinet and also go active at the same time. He is a professional classical musician and hifi fan so has a very good ear for audio. He said that there was no difference between the sound of old Prestige cabinet design and the new one. Once he had changed the cabinet design he started to go active using (you guessed it) a Behringer CX3400 active crossover and three Quad stereo power amps (I believe they were the 909s). They were wired up using Van Damme studio grade speaker cables and sound as good as any speakers I have ever heard, in fact probably better than any. I have a feeling that a large pair of ATC or PMC studio monitors would better them but the price is astronomical.
I have populated the old-style Prestige cabs with the Prestige Silver drivers with the exception that I was lucky enough to get PMC's version of the mid dome. This mid driver was obviously made to be a drop-in replacement for the ATC that PMC originally used because it fits exactly into the recess in the rear of the baffle board and it looks very similar to the ATC (there are small differences). Each driver is wired (using appropriate grades of Van Damme Studio Grade speaker cable) to three pairs of binding posts per cab; there are no x-over components inside the boxes.
At first I used the speakers in a bi-amped mode using the passive crossover outside the cabinets, this produced very good results and was (from memory) not far off the sound of the active speakers (mentioned above). Then I got the Behringer CX3400 (I did toy with the idea of the DEQ2496 but since the CX3400 is so cheap, and easy to sell secondhand, I went for this at first). I also wondered about all the ADC/DAC conversion going on and came to the conclusion that eventually a direct USB (or other digital) connection into the crossover would be best, that's for later.
The current configuration is using the active x-over in 2-way mode, with the bass being fully active while the mid and treble is still routed via the passive x-over. This situation will only last until I get another stereo power amp and go fully active. I am using a pair of vintage HH VX900 professional power amps and intend to use another from this range as the third. These amps were extensively used in broadcast and recording studios (and still are in some places) and are extremely powerful, robust and accurate not to mention back-breakingly heavy! The transformers have to be seen to be believed. I came across these because I wanted the quality of a Bryston amp and wondered what was used before them, the answer was in many cases HH. If you want something more modern try looking at the QSC RMX range, these are a similar quality and readily available in a range of power outputs. These amps have some pros and cons, the con is that they are fan cooled so some noise comes from them, the pros include the facts that they are supremely powerful and accurate but also include amplifier and speaker protection devices to stop you destroying your valuable hardware.
Oddly enough I also use an Audiolab CDQ8200 for digital replay (using the balanced XLR out put via Van Damme studio grade signal cable) to the power amp inputs. Everyone who hears this system is amazed at the transparency and realism of the sound produced.
To put this in perspective I was previously using a pair of B&W M801s as my main speakers, these were ex-Sony Classic Studios in Hamburg and are a truly wonderful pair of loudspeakers. Sadly the new ones based on the WA boxes and drivers described above have made the B&Ws redundant.....something I never thought would happen.
I must admit to reservations about the Behringer x-over, I'm sure an active crossover with fixed points would be better, and also the components and power supply etc must be very cheap to sell for the price they are. Having said that it is a very cheap and easy way to get going. I would also like to have a clone of one of the larger PMC transmission line cabinets instead of the bass-reflex used by WA but these things are for the future.
Hope all that helps!?
To make sure you understand the history of this, the original owner of my cabs and crossovers (they were WA's own demonstrators originally) decided to change to the new design of cabinet and also go active at the same time. He is a professional classical musician and hifi fan so has a very good ear for audio. He said that there was no difference between the sound of old Prestige cabinet design and the new one. Once he had changed the cabinet design he started to go active using (you guessed it) a Behringer CX3400 active crossover and three Quad stereo power amps (I believe they were the 909s). They were wired up using Van Damme studio grade speaker cables and sound as good as any speakers I have ever heard, in fact probably better than any. I have a feeling that a large pair of ATC or PMC studio monitors would better them but the price is astronomical.
I have populated the old-style Prestige cabs with the Prestige Silver drivers with the exception that I was lucky enough to get PMC's version of the mid dome. This mid driver was obviously made to be a drop-in replacement for the ATC that PMC originally used because it fits exactly into the recess in the rear of the baffle board and it looks very similar to the ATC (there are small differences). Each driver is wired (using appropriate grades of Van Damme Studio Grade speaker cable) to three pairs of binding posts per cab; there are no x-over components inside the boxes.
At first I used the speakers in a bi-amped mode using the passive crossover outside the cabinets, this produced very good results and was (from memory) not far off the sound of the active speakers (mentioned above). Then I got the Behringer CX3400 (I did toy with the idea of the DEQ2496 but since the CX3400 is so cheap, and easy to sell secondhand, I went for this at first). I also wondered about all the ADC/DAC conversion going on and came to the conclusion that eventually a direct USB (or other digital) connection into the crossover would be best, that's for later.
The current configuration is using the active x-over in 2-way mode, with the bass being fully active while the mid and treble is still routed via the passive x-over. This situation will only last until I get another stereo power amp and go fully active. I am using a pair of vintage HH VX900 professional power amps and intend to use another from this range as the third. These amps were extensively used in broadcast and recording studios (and still are in some places) and are extremely powerful, robust and accurate not to mention back-breakingly heavy! The transformers have to be seen to be believed. I came across these because I wanted the quality of a Bryston amp and wondered what was used before them, the answer was in many cases HH. If you want something more modern try looking at the QSC RMX range, these are a similar quality and readily available in a range of power outputs. These amps have some pros and cons, the con is that they are fan cooled so some noise comes from them, the pros include the facts that they are supremely powerful and accurate but also include amplifier and speaker protection devices to stop you destroying your valuable hardware.
Oddly enough I also use an Audiolab CDQ8200 for digital replay (using the balanced XLR out put via Van Damme studio grade signal cable) to the power amp inputs. Everyone who hears this system is amazed at the transparency and realism of the sound produced.
To put this in perspective I was previously using a pair of B&W M801s as my main speakers, these were ex-Sony Classic Studios in Hamburg and are a truly wonderful pair of loudspeakers. Sadly the new ones based on the WA boxes and drivers described above have made the B&Ws redundant.....something I never thought would happen.
I must admit to reservations about the Behringer x-over, I'm sure an active crossover with fixed points would be better, and also the components and power supply etc must be very cheap to sell for the price they are. Having said that it is a very cheap and easy way to get going. I would also like to have a clone of one of the larger PMC transmission line cabinets instead of the bass-reflex used by WA but these things are for the future.
Hope all that helps!?
I have no personal experience and am just repeating what I was told. It could be that an expert would find it an easy job to get just right. Despite this the cabinets did look very good so perhaps he was being hyper critical! They sounded amazing!
That is an interesting project and, if I remember correctly, he used Behringer power amps for it. I've never heard any of them but they were rated well by the builder of that system. When I got my M80s there were also a pair with six mono power amps which I assume were also active, so I guess that B&W must have made them active and passive (or someone was modding them). One thing is for sure, active speakers lose less output power since the amps aren't heating crossover components.
That was a fantastic reply!
I too use balanced XLR outputs via Van Damme studio grade signal cables into my CMS65s and two unbalanced Van Damme cables into my two BK200 subs crossed over at 45hz for movies and the ultimate in loud organ music reproduction!
If only I had had your reply last September, I have since invested in the two sealed BK subs, and built oak stands for the studio monitors........my wife might kill me if I now tell her I am thinking of swapping it all in for some floor-standers.....
I clearly need a dedicated listening room!
So would I be correct in thinking you have simply picked two crossover points and are emplying no EQ at all. May I ask what the points are, what slope you have chosen and how you came to those decisions?
Thanks again! Rich
I too use balanced XLR outputs via Van Damme studio grade signal cables into my CMS65s and two unbalanced Van Damme cables into my two BK200 subs crossed over at 45hz for movies and the ultimate in loud organ music reproduction!
If only I had had your reply last September, I have since invested in the two sealed BK subs, and built oak stands for the studio monitors........my wife might kill me if I now tell her I am thinking of swapping it all in for some floor-standers.....
I clearly need a dedicated listening room!
So would I be correct in thinking you have simply picked two crossover points and are emplying no EQ at all. May I ask what the points are, what slope you have chosen and how you came to those decisions?
Thanks again! Rich
Thanks. I couldn't reply last September because I only got most of the parts to make these speakers this year! I had the Volt Radials before that but none of the other stuff. Van Damme is studio grade is good stuff and most of the music we listen to has probably been made using it. At the moment the lower x-over point is the only one I have picked (because the mid/tweeter point is determined by the passive x-over but it is well-known that the ATC mid is usually crossed over at 380Hz and 3500Hz (I think that's correct). I received FR plots with my PMC mids and am using a suitable frequency for it and the Volts. You are correct about no EQ for the bass driver but if there is any EQ in the WA passive x-over then that is still there (I have reason to believe there is very little or none). When I go to fully active I will not anticipate adding much EQ because of my experience with a similar system (described earlier). I could be wrong about this, and it would need detailed measurement to determine exactly, but what I can say is that they can't be far out because they sound so good. The CX3400 does allow EQ in some ways because each pass band has a level control. The slopes of the WA x-over aren't known to me, and Behringer slope is whatever they designed into the CX3400 (I think it is the LR 24dB/oct). I think that the DEQ2496 would be useful with its calibration mode and variable slopes but that's for the future. as of now I have one of the best replay systems I have ever heard. The filter settings on the CDQ now show themselves to have a very noticeable effect on the sound and I am constantly thinking "I hadn't noticed that sound before"
Btw, a quick look at the Wilmslow Audio website shows that the three drivers used in the Prestige Silver kits all show a sensitivity of 91dB - which suggests that little or no EQ will be required.
Totally agree with the filter settings on the CDQ. I normally run optimal spectrum as it seems more revealing, and interestingly is the best for clear crisp bass, now the system goes flat down to 20 hz with my two subs.
Optimal transient is my next fav - less clear and slightly more pronounced bass, and less bright top end, but very 'musical', I find transient XD too bright and bass heavy in the 40-80 hz region with a slight 'reverb' (my wifes favorite filter!) and transient DD is just boring!
I haven't given the others much time at all. But I don't think I would see such obvious deferences without good studio monitors or very accurate speakers.
I now need to spend some time looking at my room layout and seeing if I can fit in new floor-standers! I was thinking a 3-way plate amp with digital input and digital DSP x-over like the groundsound Coolback II 300.....would be the ticket!
Optimal transient is my next fav - less clear and slightly more pronounced bass, and less bright top end, but very 'musical', I find transient XD too bright and bass heavy in the 40-80 hz region with a slight 'reverb' (my wifes favorite filter!) and transient DD is just boring!
I haven't given the others much time at all. But I don't think I would see such obvious deferences without good studio monitors or very accurate speakers.
I now need to spend some time looking at my room layout and seeing if I can fit in new floor-standers! I was thinking a 3-way plate amp with digital input and digital DSP x-over like the groundsound Coolback II 300.....would be the ticket!
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Well, to read that the WA Prestige can blow the socks off the B&W 801 is enough recommendation for me to give them a try.
How bad are the cabinets to DIY? Would I be better off just paying a few more bucks and buying pre-made cabinets ?
How bad are the cabinets to DIY? Would I be better off just paying a few more bucks and buying pre-made cabinets ?
They will blow the socks off anything under £10k think. Having some studio engineering experience with ATC100s and Dynaudio actives the size of a wardrobe I don't make that statement in jest.
The driver kit is a couple of grand, don't skimp on the cabs because you won't be hearing their full potential. Mine are solid cherry built by WAs cabinet maker. If finish isn't important you can do a good job with MDF as its quite dense but I'd recommend letting them take care of it. I wanted to DIY some but when I found these I just dropped my pride in my own abilities and stumped up the cash. They are things of beauty, sound unbelievably good and are an absolute bargain even if you get them pre built. One of the best kept secrets of the Hifi world, the WA website certainly doesn't do them justice in any way.
The driver kit is a couple of grand, don't skimp on the cabs because you won't be hearing their full potential. Mine are solid cherry built by WAs cabinet maker. If finish isn't important you can do a good job with MDF as its quite dense but I'd recommend letting them take care of it. I wanted to DIY some but when I found these I just dropped my pride in my own abilities and stumped up the cash. They are things of beauty, sound unbelievably good and are an absolute bargain even if you get them pre built. One of the best kept secrets of the Hifi world, the WA website certainly doesn't do them justice in any way.
I wouldn't say the WA Prestige can "blow the socks off" the M801s which are excellent speakers but given the choice, which I have since I currently own both, I will be keeping the modified Prestige speakers. I think the main difference is in the drive units. As for DIY I think the difficulty is in getting the angled corners of the Prestige cabinets exactly right but I have no personal experience of this. You might do well to get them pre-assembled.
Something else to bear in mind about the WA Prestige is that it seems ScanSpeak are not making the D2905/9900.00 tweeter (in the Gold kit) anymore, and do not supply repair kits any longer - so if you ever popped one you'd have to rely on old stock. I repaired one recently and found it difficult to source the kit. This might also apply to the tweeter in the Silver kit. I think that WA will tell you that the tweeter in the Platinum kit will work with the others - they told me that all the crossovers are the same, despite the varying types of drivers used.
Well, I've taken the plunge and I've just ordered the flat-pack cabinets. As I live virtually just down the motorway from them I'll be collecting them next week.
I'm aiming finish them in piano gloss black.
I've got a week off work to curse and swear at them.....LOL
I am going for the Platignum version. Only another £2400.
I'm aiming finish them in piano gloss black.
I've got a week off work to curse and swear at them.....LOL
I am going for the Platignum version. Only another £2400.
I'm sure everyone will be interested to hear how you get on with the DIY. I'd be very interested to hear what you think of the Volt midrange driver. Are you going to use passive or active crossovers?
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