I suppose it depends on your world view.
I spend all my life in front of computers.
And I'm rather good at them.
I spend all my life in front of computers.
And I'm rather good at them.
Good for you but this is my thread and it is about WiiM Ultra. Not much to do with world view 😉 It is also not an absurde facet of High End audio as it is low budget gear and even then the average pc probably has a very hard time blowing it out of the water too.
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It's not silly, as a rule of thumb I always look at the user's manual before I buy. Sometimes, I don't, like the Chromebook and bit perfect. So that bit me.
The thing is that I want a very specific configuration, my use case is specific, so I end up in with DIY setup, with lots of boxes and cables and switches and so on.
I keep looking for something simple, but it's either spending megabucks for convenience, which I will not, or continuing in my Quixotic endeavor.
Currently I've brought down to two parts... a PC/Chromebook/Android tablet and a DAC over USB-OTG. It used to be one big full size PC when I started this in the 90s. With very specific quiet parts....
The WiiM Ultra is cute, but it seems like it's designed as a DAC with volume knob and a wireless connection to the "streamer/renderer". If they would spend a little bit more money and add an ARM chip in it and the ability to move the streamer/renderer in place -run the software in place with Android and perfect bit, and a connection to an external display, then it could be a killer device.
It also seems to be designed for people who want to use their phone, specifically their iPhone, as the source. So, that's another thing I don't do.
BTW, I just checked, for remote control, Android and chrome devices support Microsoft Remote Desktop...
So close.... so close... back to the DIY world.
The thing is that I want a very specific configuration, my use case is specific, so I end up in with DIY setup, with lots of boxes and cables and switches and so on.
I keep looking for something simple, but it's either spending megabucks for convenience, which I will not, or continuing in my Quixotic endeavor.
Currently I've brought down to two parts... a PC/Chromebook/Android tablet and a DAC over USB-OTG. It used to be one big full size PC when I started this in the 90s. With very specific quiet parts....
The WiiM Ultra is cute, but it seems like it's designed as a DAC with volume knob and a wireless connection to the "streamer/renderer". If they would spend a little bit more money and add an ARM chip in it and the ability to move the streamer/renderer in place -run the software in place with Android and perfect bit, and a connection to an external display, then it could be a killer device.
It also seems to be designed for people who want to use their phone, specifically their iPhone, as the source. So, that's another thing I don't do.
BTW, I just checked, for remote control, Android and chrome devices support Microsoft Remote Desktop...
So close.... so close... back to the DIY world.
Don’t judge a book by its cover.
Yes we know you want a simple device with very specific demands, many complex features and with all IO and Remote Desktop a pc has. So a not so simple audio device but a pc. Yes you want another pc!
Practically no customer that is in the market for an audio player appreciates the external stuff a pc has. That is their reason for existence. It is a killer device but it is not your device. All is good.
BTW it has an ARM CPU. Most audio players have ARM and embedded Linux or Android.
Yes we know you want a simple device with very specific demands, many complex features and with all IO and Remote Desktop a pc has. So a not so simple audio device but a pc. Yes you want another pc!
Practically no customer that is in the market for an audio player appreciates the external stuff a pc has. That is their reason for existence. It is a killer device but it is not your device. All is good.
BTW it has an ARM CPU. Most audio players have ARM and embedded Linux or Android.
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An A7xx or something like that? Audio doesn't need much CPU power and power efficiency is not important for a plugged in device. Also, display rendering can be moved to a simple GPU ( cheap for non gaming devices ). Then install Android into it, create a simple software front end to limit what you can run in it... and you're set.
But now, we're redesigning it.... stop... stop.... can't help it....
But now, we're redesigning it.... stop... stop.... can't help it....
Usually one learns to appreciate such a device by trying it out. Very likely it does exactly what you want from it (and possibly more). It helps to stop assuming. The general rule with devices like this is that they are designed specifically to play back audio in various ways but all in the most optimal way. That is without checking OS updates while typing an e-mail and playing a game on a 27” screen and the question popping up if you are sure to empty the recycle bin.
In perspective the WiiM company gets a share of the market by offering affordable devices that are easy to operate and also sound good without the need to connect an arsenal of stuff.
In perspective the WiiM company gets a share of the market by offering affordable devices that are easy to operate and also sound good without the need to connect an arsenal of stuff.
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I can see the benefits of either approach. The choice will depend on a specific user case.
Dedicated streamers need to be executed well to approach a little NUC that I run in my system. The cost of such streamers is around AU$10k. Innuous Pulsar, which I borrowed from a friend last week, provided the level of details that I liked while still preserving a natural timbre that sounded very believable.
I use Windows10 Enterprise LTSC version (skeleton install in itself), and then I run a batch file (ever improving and evolving) that disables a lot of things... diag-track services, various push services, auto loggers, diagnostic services/listeners, compatibility appraisers, all telemetries (there are a few... lol, even NVidia has its own), remote assistance, statistics reporting, and updates. The CPU utilisation is between 0 and 1% at all times with no interruptions of any kind. There's only a USB cable plugged into NUC, so there are no external pollutants either. I am very happy with this particular solution.
I could learn to live with a dedicated streamer, but I like what HQPLayerPro does to PCM and DSD streams, and I can get that only with WinOS and a very fast CPU. My solution costs around AU $1.6k plus around AU $1.4k for the money I spent on the power supply I built.. around 3k total.
I believe that the ultimate choice will depend on what you want to achieve... but neither option should be bluntly discarded.
Dedicated streamers need to be executed well to approach a little NUC that I run in my system. The cost of such streamers is around AU$10k. Innuous Pulsar, which I borrowed from a friend last week, provided the level of details that I liked while still preserving a natural timbre that sounded very believable.
I use Windows10 Enterprise LTSC version (skeleton install in itself), and then I run a batch file (ever improving and evolving) that disables a lot of things... diag-track services, various push services, auto loggers, diagnostic services/listeners, compatibility appraisers, all telemetries (there are a few... lol, even NVidia has its own), remote assistance, statistics reporting, and updates. The CPU utilisation is between 0 and 1% at all times with no interruptions of any kind. There's only a USB cable plugged into NUC, so there are no external pollutants either. I am very happy with this particular solution.
I could learn to live with a dedicated streamer, but I like what HQPLayerPro does to PCM and DSD streams, and I can get that only with WinOS and a very fast CPU. My solution costs around AU $1.6k plus around AU $1.4k for the money I spent on the power supply I built.. around 3k total.
I believe that the ultimate choice will depend on what you want to achieve... but neither option should be bluntly discarded.
At present I have a Wiim Pro+ and an Ultra in 2 different houses. They have been trouble-free, fast setup, easy to use. One pleasant surprise is how I can seamlessly switch streams from Spotify to Qobuz to my LMS server on a whim and with no hiccups or delays.
And if it DID glitch I'm pretty confident that if you submitted a ticket via the app they would push out a fix in the next update. Wiim support is on-point.
I recently compared some tracks that I have in 4 formats:
Vinyl - all analog system.
CD - digital out to Wiim.
Flac file on local server via Wiim.
High-res streaming via Qobuz app on Wiim.
I was surprised and a little embarrassed that vinyl came up short on this 4-way comparison. That wasn't the case when I was streaming for 15 years using a Squeezebox. Wiim replaced that and upped my digital game.
Now I'm trying to step-up my vinyl game again.
And if it DID glitch I'm pretty confident that if you submitted a ticket via the app they would push out a fix in the next update. Wiim support is on-point.
I recently compared some tracks that I have in 4 formats:
Vinyl - all analog system.
CD - digital out to Wiim.
Flac file on local server via Wiim.
High-res streaming via Qobuz app on Wiim.
I was surprised and a little embarrassed that vinyl came up short on this 4-way comparison. That wasn't the case when I was streaming for 15 years using a Squeezebox. Wiim replaced that and upped my digital game.
Now I'm trying to step-up my vinyl game again.
Analog.... next week... LP12, Trampolin 2, Karousel, Lingo, Keel, T-Kable, Ekos2, Grado Master 2, P3 with op amps.... the only thing I will be shy will be ultrasonic cleaner... making do with a VPI 16.5...
I got a feel that the analog is gonna beat the digital... it was already doing so last week....
I got a feel that the analog is gonna beat the digital... it was already doing so last week....
This was standard for a too long time. Many audio players were inadequate and could be improved (Squeezebox Touch, HiFidelio). Did the challenge many times with a few audio guys and analog used to be preferred also by me (but not the plops, scratches and inconvenience). It was my challenge/motivation to build DACs that could compete. About 10 years ago things started to change when DAC chips and more specifically better SPDIF/USB receivers were introduced that did perform OK. I recall the sighs and unbelief by the turntable/tube guys that "it still is digital but it finally sounds good". When the Chinese entered the game only a few years ago the picture changed totally.
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Control of the Wiim Ultra is via the mobile app and it works very well. It will stream Tidal and other music services direct from the menu as long as you give it internet access via WIFI. I use it to play from my NAS. Prompted by your question I checked their website https://wiimhome.com/app and it has apps for Windows and MacOS also. Currently playing from my laptop.
Do you feel they have advanced the art, or just made it more affordable?
My best friend spends crazy money on gear... Enormous electrostatics, SOTA turntable, SAE arm, Lumin streamer, tube preamp and monoblock amps, etc.
For years his hi-res streaming has sounded amazing.
With the recent addition of Wiim streamer and Fosi phono preamp I'm starting to get a taste of that quality in my own system--at prices I can afford.
Actually, I read more into that, it's more than control. You need the WiiM application in your smart phone / tablet to configure the WiiM ( bad solution IMHO ).
The actual audio streaming applications run natively in the smart phone / tablet / PC.
It does not stream services from the WiiM App, it actually does the casting from the audio application in your phone/tablet/PC. This is how Tidal does it... in the "now playing" screen ( this is a PC, but Android has the same thing )...
Click on the speaker and the available devices come up. According to the User's Manual, if you have a WiiM device enabled over your LAN, it will appear...
Note how my PC finds the Nuforce DDA100 over USB, the local PC speakers AND the LG TV in the den ( that one has both wired Ethernet and WiFi ).
Also, you can use ethernet instead of wireless. If you plug in the ethernet cable it automatically overrides the WiFi. So, you really don't need WiFi to run it. Their manual is incorrect in the beginning... you just got to keep reading and you see the caveats..
Note too they say they support "up to"... meaning that if your audio application runs in your phone/tablet/PC it might be limited in bandwidth.
So, my question is not answered. We still don't know if it will be bit perfect if you use an Android or ChromeOS device to cast to Wiim Ultra.
If the remote device does not support bit perfect. and like the Chromebook downrez to 24/48, will the WiiM support bit perfect or just the best the remote device can do?
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Both I think. Even cheap devices now have good performance a their more recent devices are in the top of measurements (does not say how they sound though). Longevity is an issue, strongly depending on the manufacturer.
Problem is that we don't want to pay the premium prices we were used to pay for western made stuff. Offering cheap stuff is the current business model of the Chinese audio brands as that is the main attraction point. Premium quality Chinese stuff does exist but is not in the view or interest of many due to the established business model that "Chinese = cheap, cheap can be replaced". When they have overtaken the complete market we likely will see higher prices. Examples are chinese made UPSes. Everybody laughed at those a few years ago but today they start to dominate the professional market and the traditional brands with service organization model (and service engineers) simply step out. The Chinese newcomers even entered companies by selling their products at a loss. Some offered free spare parts (but no service engineers) so "professional DIY" by the customer 🙂
We educate their children at our universities so what can go wrong? 😀
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I can't answer your bit perfect query but some audio is played from the Wiim as source and not via a device. You can launch the Ultra by pressing any of the buttons and can then select preset radio channels that the user has set. I have various BBC and Radio Paradise channels in my presets. You can get all this without touching a remote device.
On your point of for example Tidal not being played natively from the Ultra as a source. Once music is playing from that platform, you can pause and alter the volume using the rotary encoder on the Wiim. Surely that means it is indeed playing from the Wiim.?
On your point of for example Tidal not being played natively from the Ultra as a source. Once music is playing from that platform, you can pause and alter the volume using the rotary encoder on the Wiim. Surely that means it is indeed playing from the Wiim.?
Are you calling me a troll? Why? Because I'm discussing the WiiM? Huh?
I'm actually wanting to get a WiiM, but I want to make sure it will play bit perfect.
I did another experiment yesterday.... I took an Android Tablet running v12 and have Tidal playing in it. Connected via USB-OTG to DAC.
For DAC I'm using a Topping D90LE, on its front screen it shows the bit rate. With the Chromebook it always shows PCM 48Khz... with the Android Tablet it shows 1292Khz PCM. What I find interesting about this is that the rate shown at the DAC is the same whether the Tidal source is set to anything ( I changed the audio quality of the stream all the way from low to mid to high to master.... and I played different tunes..).
Does the WiiM show the input bit rate?
If I could get it to play master files from the Android Tablet over the network then it would be fine.
I also wonder about the quality of its DAC.... Have any of you compared its internal DAC with other over USB?
@jimk04 That behavior is interesting... it could be that when casting from the remote to the WiiM we have a two way connection? Or maybe there's a big buffer in the WiiM. Can you START a new song from the WiiM? Can you select what to play from the WIiM? To fully test this, turn off the remote while the WiiM is playing music. See how long it will play? Will it finish the current song? Can you play the next song?
I do wish the User Manual would be better written.
BTW, has anyone in this forums upgraded the op amps? They seem to be SMD, so they would need a DIP socket soldered in....
https://forum.wiimhome.com/threads/teardown-of-the-ultra.5441/
BTW, there's an Amazon Deal today... with California sales tax it ran $301.... free shipping ( Amazon Prime ).... for that price I shouldn't be too picky... if worse comes to worse I can play it in my bedroom system... the big 1974 Marantz, even fully rebuilt, doesn't care if its bit perfect... And I figure a WiFi peer to peer connection should be better than Bluetooth.
I guess now I'll do some hands on experiments.
https://www.amazon.com/WiiM-Streame...ocphy=9213758&hvtargid=pla-2325486270408&th=1
I'm actually wanting to get a WiiM, but I want to make sure it will play bit perfect.
I did another experiment yesterday.... I took an Android Tablet running v12 and have Tidal playing in it. Connected via USB-OTG to DAC.
For DAC I'm using a Topping D90LE, on its front screen it shows the bit rate. With the Chromebook it always shows PCM 48Khz... with the Android Tablet it shows 1292Khz PCM. What I find interesting about this is that the rate shown at the DAC is the same whether the Tidal source is set to anything ( I changed the audio quality of the stream all the way from low to mid to high to master.... and I played different tunes..).
Does the WiiM show the input bit rate?
If I could get it to play master files from the Android Tablet over the network then it would be fine.
I also wonder about the quality of its DAC.... Have any of you compared its internal DAC with other over USB?
@jimk04 That behavior is interesting... it could be that when casting from the remote to the WiiM we have a two way connection? Or maybe there's a big buffer in the WiiM. Can you START a new song from the WiiM? Can you select what to play from the WIiM? To fully test this, turn off the remote while the WiiM is playing music. See how long it will play? Will it finish the current song? Can you play the next song?
I do wish the User Manual would be better written.
BTW, has anyone in this forums upgraded the op amps? They seem to be SMD, so they would need a DIP socket soldered in....
https://forum.wiimhome.com/threads/teardown-of-the-ultra.5441/
BTW, there's an Amazon Deal today... with California sales tax it ran $301.... free shipping ( Amazon Prime ).... for that price I shouldn't be too picky... if worse comes to worse I can play it in my bedroom system... the big 1974 Marantz, even fully rebuilt, doesn't care if its bit perfect... And I figure a WiFi peer to peer connection should be better than Bluetooth.
I guess now I'll do some hands on experiments.
https://www.amazon.com/WiiM-Streame...ocphy=9213758&hvtargid=pla-2325486270408&th=1
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