You do not understand the physics involved. This tech has been under investigation since the ‘50s. Hegeman dis the initial work that i have seen). Only recently with powerful compuermodeling and 3D printing it can be scaled for a tweeter. A meta absorber will have a limited bandwidth.
Mayhem, do you haveanydiffusors on the walls of your studio?
dave
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The NS10 have been designed with attention about temporal behavior. The way the sealed alignement was choosen, has well as drivers behaviour combine to give an excelent time domain behavior, transient reproduction.
That's why despite all its flaws ( short on bass, not 'pretty' sounding, highlight of mids) it been used during all this time by mixing engineers as a convenient tool.
In fact the flaws are useful when mixing... as was the horrible 11khz peak and 80hz cutof freq in lowend on Auratones.
And no, nearfield studio monitors was not NS10 intented field when designed...
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/yamaha-ns10-story
That's why despite all its flaws ( short on bass, not 'pretty' sounding, highlight of mids) it been used during all this time by mixing engineers as a convenient tool.
In fact the flaws are useful when mixing... as was the horrible 11khz peak and 80hz cutof freq in lowend on Auratones.
And no, nearfield studio monitors was not NS10 intented field when designed...
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/yamaha-ns10-story
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My pleasure.
If you want to push further there is an interesting dedicated section (since the 2nd edition iirc) in P.Newell 'recording studio design', Focal Press.
I never managed to get a copy of the article they talk about in the S.O.S. NS10 story.
If you want to push further there is an interesting dedicated section (since the 2nd edition iirc) in P.Newell 'recording studio design', Focal Press.
I never managed to get a copy of the article they talk about in the S.O.S. NS10 story.
Of course I do…..but what’s important is if the physics involved impart a performance feature that can be perceived AND preferred……neither were confirmable beyond chance in AB comparisons.
yes….i employ extensive diffusion, absorption and bass trapping in my studio. The most significant treatment being a 5x10 ft suspended SoundCloud comprised of 4” of rock wool between perforated panels that were adjustable drop in segmented triangles. When completed and adjusted during measurements, nearly a dozen room modes were smoothed by 5db or more.
To get back to the topic at hand. This is a curious observation. I posit a chicken/egg question!
There are very few commercial offerings available since they're hard to make good. People build what they are inspired by, inspiration found in the commercial market. So with little demand for them, few companies are williing to invest in the R&D.
It's too bad KEF doesn't sell the Uni-Q driver out of the Blade.
FR ia but one axis in a multi-dimensional space that describe what a loudspeaker does. Phase, impedance (real & imaginary), distortion (a bunch more dimensions), DDR, and a bunch of other stuff we know and don’t know.
And then there is the ultimate measuring tool … as mayhem has pointed out, the ear/brain of those percieving the output of the hifi.
dave
Diffusers are cousins of the meta absorber. I have not heard a meta tweeter, but i certainly have followed and experiments that would fit on the path of the historical development of rear absorbers in tweeters.
dave
Understand. Throwing up nothing but a FR graph was a bit flippant on my part then.
I had mostly read comments about why the NS-10 was used/useful that sounded like nonsense at worse or highly subjective at best.
The article krivium posted was the first I have read that had something objective in it.
With an atrocious FR, it wasn't clear to me what made it useful. Versus something like low group delay, rapid decay/low reverberation time, low enough distortion (for the time?) in a package that was easily mobile, and the FR was known and easy enough to EQ out if desired. At least that's what it seems like from reading that article.
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About that NS-10, Klippel NFS measurements here https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/yamaha_ns10m_studio/
Axial reponse is bad and limited, some resemblance to LS3/5A. Directivity is bad.
Regarding distortion, 3rd harmonic dominates around the upper mid peaking, so that must be characteristic for the "sound"
GD is typical for sealed 2-way., nothing special. Step response is not perfect, looks like xo is asymmetric.
KEF Meta tweeters are nice in suppressing resonances and distortion, but refined xo is more important for sound. Direct comparison (DBLT) with eq'd responses would be conclusive. Eg. LS50 and LS50Meta have very different responses etc. measurements.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/kef-ls50-bookshelf-speaker-review.11144/
https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/kef_ls50_meta/
Axial reponse is bad and limited, some resemblance to LS3/5A. Directivity is bad.
Regarding distortion, 3rd harmonic dominates around the upper mid peaking, so that must be characteristic for the "sound"
GD is typical for sealed 2-way., nothing special. Step response is not perfect, looks like xo is asymmetric.
KEF Meta tweeters are nice in suppressing resonances and distortion, but refined xo is more important for sound. Direct comparison (DBLT) with eq'd responses would be conclusive. Eg. LS50 and LS50Meta have very different responses etc. measurements.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/kef-ls50-bookshelf-speaker-review.11144/
https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/kef_ls50_meta/
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A true 'sort of coax' story >
When I was a teenager, my mother had a friend whose speakers were a pair of SEAS 10" 'twin cone' drivers.
After talking to him about my interest in HiFi and two-way speakers, he assigned me his speakers for modification.
I bought a pair of 2.5" cone tweeters and 'off the shelf' 3Khz crossover networks with first order bass & second order tweeter.
I delicately removed the central 'whizzer cones' and suspended the tweeters over the 10"'s with twin 'aluminum struts'.
Upon listening to his new speakers, he spoke about how much clearer his music was. He seemed very happy about it.
I may have 'fluked' the phase orientation, because I didn't know about how crucial such a thing was back then 🙂
When I was a teenager, my mother had a friend whose speakers were a pair of SEAS 10" 'twin cone' drivers.
After talking to him about my interest in HiFi and two-way speakers, he assigned me his speakers for modification.
I bought a pair of 2.5" cone tweeters and 'off the shelf' 3Khz crossover networks with first order bass & second order tweeter.
I delicately removed the central 'whizzer cones' and suspended the tweeters over the 10"'s with twin 'aluminum struts'.
Upon listening to his new speakers, he spoke about how much clearer his music was. He seemed very happy about it.
I may have 'fluked' the phase orientation, because I didn't know about how crucial such a thing was back then 🙂
I understood that the some of the pros with the KEF Meta tweeter, is that lower distortion allows for a lower cross over, which again makes a smoother and better power response. If I remember correctly, the Meta has around 5-600Hz lower cross over frequency. I cross my R3 none Meta coax at 2k with LR24... But I'm not sure how steep KEF cross?
Maybe mentioned before, but I guess one of the things with this Kef Meta Coax is a actual decent size back chamber for the tweeter. On top of that they can tune any way they want and then also lower peak around FS.
This is super interesting. I hadn't seen the original LS50 measurements before. This exhibits the peak-trough-peak tweeter response that is much more like a SEAS coax on axis, which then smooths out off axis. Which would mean KEF really only figured this part out more recently than I had thought. Afterall, the LS50 has the tangerine phase-shield / waveguide throat thing.
A coaxial will have symmetrical directivity in horizontal and vertical axis, and this approximates a point source better than drivers with non-coincident drivers.
But as the cone is acting as the waveguide for the tweeter, the directivity will be higher.
A multi-driver with separately located drivers can have lower directivity/wider dispersion, but of course, will have asymmetrical dispersion above and below the on/reference axis.
This may or may not be an desirable, depending on the room / desired application
It’s a trade off:
Directivity study:
But as the cone is acting as the waveguide for the tweeter, the directivity will be higher.
A multi-driver with separately located drivers can have lower directivity/wider dispersion, but of course, will have asymmetrical dispersion above and below the on/reference axis.
This may or may not be an desirable, depending on the room / desired application
It’s a trade off:
Directivity study:
I've posted a small study comparing High, Medium and Low Frequency drivers in a variety of cabinets.
It's on another forum that allows me to edit/amend as more data becomes available.
First up, some pretty colors:
Edit Jan 2025- Speaker A/B revealed-
SPEAKER A:
3 way speaker with 8” woofer and 5”/1” coaxial driver:
SPEAKER B:
3 way speaker with twin 12” woofers and 6” midrange + 1” ring radiator tweeter:
Now, if you're not sure of how what these colors/shapes mean, then this directivity study is for you!
It's aimed at...
It's on another forum that allows me to edit/amend as more data becomes available.
First up, some pretty colors:
Edit Jan 2025- Speaker A/B revealed-
SPEAKER A:
3 way speaker with 8” woofer and 5”/1” coaxial driver:
SPEAKER B:
3 way speaker with twin 12” woofers and 6” midrange + 1” ring radiator tweeter:
Now, if you're not sure of how what these colors/shapes mean, then this directivity study is for you!
It's aimed at...
It depends. NS10 is a studio monitor, and is even unique among those with its heavy midrange focus. LS10 is a bookshelf speaker. Totally different audiences and purposes.
NS-10 was designed for home, but it became popular. NS-10M was studio version
I guess that covering the tweeter with toilet paper was to make it mimic cheap consumer speakers better! NS10M was never the main speaker in big studios, but because it sat on console it appeared in pictures often. And then became popular in home/cave "studios" because many people thought that it is exceptionally good and neutral. And press articles gave food for that too.
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/yamaha-ns10-story (very good and rational review)
https://musicproductionglossary.com/yamaha-ns-10/ (lots of saga hype bla-bla, wrong "facts" etc.)
I guess that covering the tweeter with toilet paper was to make it mimic cheap consumer speakers better! NS10M was never the main speaker in big studios, but because it sat on console it appeared in pictures often. And then became popular in home/cave "studios" because many people thought that it is exceptionally good and neutral. And press articles gave food for that too.
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/yamaha-ns10-story (very good and rational review)
https://musicproductionglossary.com/yamaha-ns-10/ (lots of saga hype bla-bla, wrong "facts" etc.)
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