I got 97db speakers. My amp driving that is only 8 watts and the potentiometer barely go half until you can't hear someone speaks. No one needs gazzilionwatt amps if the right subsystem was chosen in the first place.
I can understand though, amp design is both technical, art, and passion. But that does not mean chip amps are no good
. Just ask SL.
I can understand though, amp design is both technical, art, and passion. But that does not mean chip amps are no good
. Just ask SL.
The speaker is fine folks....well boys, you should try one of those ones
China is also producing nice things...for a while they are are not producing unobtanium.
Maybe we will have to produce some "fashion" brands for Chinese speakers, then they will became awsome.
This one, for instance, reproduce without noises the sound you put on it.... do not distort more than others and also reproduces tone under and above our human hearing limits.... this one moves and compresses air alike all speakers.
Be happy and enjoy music boys.
Carlos
China is also producing nice things...for a while they are are not producing unobtanium.
Maybe we will have to produce some "fashion" brands for Chinese speakers, then they will became awsome.
This one, for instance, reproduce without noises the sound you put on it.... do not distort more than others and also reproduces tone under and above our human hearing limits.... this one moves and compresses air alike all speakers.
Be happy and enjoy music boys.
Carlos
Attachments
AndrewT said:
AndrewT.
No it isnt.
Any amplifier overdriven will perform badly.
If you set up your audio system from parts that go not together or match,
then you have not understood how to put a good system together.
As I said, with any normal sensitivity speakers used in a proper way there is no problem.
Anyone with problems should contact the service department of National Semiconductor.
They would tell you what to do. What is your problem.
They even may replace any bad chip, if proven to be a faulty one.
But this would be a very rare case, as such problem are almost never reported in forum of happy
DIY gainclone builders.Regards
Re: Internal limiters inside chip amplifiers can kill your sound quality
Who cares what the amplifier does when driving a speaker at 1Hz?
The protection will activate in this case because the chip has time to heat up. At audio frequencies the temperature variation is smoothed out by the thermal capacities in the chip/package and it won't reach the protection threshold.
destroyer X said:
Who cares what the amplifier does when driving a speaker at 1Hz?
The protection will activate in this case because the chip has time to heat up. At audio frequencies the temperature variation is smoothed out by the thermal capacities in the chip/package and it won't reach the protection threshold.
Yes..for sure CRT!.... Symassym smashes the LM3886
in a very easy way.... comparing you will give a shot into the LM.
Dear Eva
After time passes and you became old as uncle charlie... after some thousand amplifiers and some hundred speakers build... then your very complicated speaker may became an air pump alike my speaker.
You know.... when times passes we start to abandon a lot of beliefs and complications, as non linearities and we accept speakers the way the are... and they are not so much different one to the other.
Also amplifiers is a hobby to uncle...in the reality what really matter is room acoustic.... even speakers can be tuned and made more linear using crossovers...never flat but reasonable.
Call me in twenty years my dear, and tell me latter on if the dam thing is an air pump or not.
ahahahahah!
Carlos
in a very easy way.... comparing you will give a shot into the LM.
Dear Eva
After time passes and you became old as uncle charlie... after some thousand amplifiers and some hundred speakers build... then your very complicated speaker may became an air pump alike my speaker.
You know.... when times passes we start to abandon a lot of beliefs and complications, as non linearities and we accept speakers the way the are... and they are not so much different one to the other.
Also amplifiers is a hobby to uncle...in the reality what really matter is room acoustic.... even speakers can be tuned and made more linear using crossovers...never flat but reasonable.
Call me in twenty years my dear, and tell me latter on if the dam thing is an air pump or not.
ahahahahah!
Carlos
Anyone who says that the LM3886 is current limited or will not give "tight" bass or enough bass has not heard a properly built one.
This is a trio, low mid and high active LM3886 amps. It drives a 3-way speaker with a 15" woofer.
I dare anyone to show up here and tell me that this is lacking in bass.
One of my workshop "air pumps"
This is a trio, low mid and high active LM3886 amps. It drives a 3-way speaker with a 15" woofer.
I dare anyone to show up here and tell me that this is lacking in bass.
One of my workshop "air pumps"
Ahahahaha!.... i also love the LM chip amplifier
It gives a very nice bass of course, nice treble of course, excelent mids and high quality sound.
But if you adjust 10 to 20 watts average and reproduce music with high dinamic level you may feel it not perfect.... calculate and you will see the maximum power is not enougth...limiting will hold it....i think 4.5 amperes is the maximum...so...having peaks or not having peaks it will be limited..you audio will be limited too...just that.
Of course, knowing how to use, not beeing exagerated, it can outperform a lot of amplifiers.
The idea is to accept the limits and operate it using the brain not only the bells.
hehehe.... just do not have the bad idea to compare when the double barreled is nearby, and loaded...because you gonna shot it....but not comparing you will feel very happy as i feel listening to it.
Be happy, nice pictures, lovely amplifiers....now it is Christmas, i hope Santa Klaus will send me some of those ones.
regards,
Carlos
It gives a very nice bass of course, nice treble of course, excelent mids and high quality sound.
But if you adjust 10 to 20 watts average and reproduce music with high dinamic level you may feel it not perfect.... calculate and you will see the maximum power is not enougth...limiting will hold it....i think 4.5 amperes is the maximum...so...having peaks or not having peaks it will be limited..you audio will be limited too...just that.
Of course, knowing how to use, not beeing exagerated, it can outperform a lot of amplifiers.
The idea is to accept the limits and operate it using the brain not only the bells.
hehehe.... just do not have the bad idea to compare when the double barreled is nearby, and loaded...because you gonna shot it....but not comparing you will feel very happy as i feel listening to it.
Be happy, nice pictures, lovely amplifiers....now it is Christmas, i hope Santa Klaus will send me some of those ones.
regards,
Carlos
Re: Ahahahaha!.... i also love the LM chip amplifier
Carlos, you are hopeless!
10 to 20 watts? Limited??
Chipamps are only as good as their implementation. Over in the chip amp forum you will see lots of examples of how NOT to build one and hear opinions from "designers" that should NOT build them.
Yes, nice pictures. Real stuff - it's what you like. I will make a video of this woofer working at 1hz!
destroyer X said:
Carlos, you are hopeless!
10 to 20 watts? Limited??
Chipamps are only as good as their implementation. Over in the chip amp forum you will see lots of examples of how NOT to build one and hear opinions from "designers" that should NOT build them.
Yes, nice pictures. Real stuff - it's what you like. I will make a video of this woofer working at 1hz!
You misunderstood me.... 20 watts average, this means you will need more power....
...when you face a "fortissimo" reproduced by your system... this will push the amplifier above the limits...and then the protection will enter...what will be the result of that...compression...limiting... smaller difference of volume when you compare the low volume moments (pianíssimo) with the high peaks (fortissimo).
Take a look into the datasheet... the limiting is clear, the distortions too, the dinamics too.. the maximum power..convert that stuff into dB and you will see what i mean...or produce a comparison and you will see discrete goes louder.... Symassym goes louder with 55 watts (same as this Chip)... Symassym distorts a little and jumps to 85 watts or something alike...when chip will hold the power into 55... you will understand, will listen, the chip as lifeless..... yeah... they say can go 100...ahahahaha...miliseconds...you try to listen and already finished this power peak!
Also that 55 is maximum extreme under special conditions..real thing, low distortion, clear audio is 35 to 40!
Yes, i have then here...all famous models tested..all AB units.
Well.... chip lovers will hunt me to boil uncle Charlie into hot oil...i have already talked too much and it is time to a strategic remotion of my troops.
Sorry folks... Charlie will go....
Bye.... while i have time do scape from the Chip lovers....
Charlie gone!
regards,
Carlos
...when you face a "fortissimo" reproduced by your system... this will push the amplifier above the limits...and then the protection will enter...what will be the result of that...compression...limiting... smaller difference of volume when you compare the low volume moments (pianíssimo) with the high peaks (fortissimo).
Take a look into the datasheet... the limiting is clear, the distortions too, the dinamics too.. the maximum power..convert that stuff into dB and you will see what i mean...or produce a comparison and you will see discrete goes louder.... Symassym goes louder with 55 watts (same as this Chip)... Symassym distorts a little and jumps to 85 watts or something alike...when chip will hold the power into 55... you will understand, will listen, the chip as lifeless..... yeah... they say can go 100...ahahahaha...miliseconds...you try to listen and already finished this power peak!
Also that 55 is maximum extreme under special conditions..real thing, low distortion, clear audio is 35 to 40!
Yes, i have then here...all famous models tested..all AB units.
Well.... chip lovers will hunt me to boil uncle Charlie into hot oil...i have already talked too much and it is time to a strategic remotion of my troops.
Sorry folks... Charlie will go....
Bye.... while i have time do scape from the Chip lovers....
Charlie gone!
regards,
Carlos
Some LM3886 real facts!!!
MJL21193 is another witness, that there are aome posters in this topic
that has got something wrong about LM3886 and the magnific National Overtures amplifliers.
They have not done there homework .. their math
Is it not sad when people go about doing baseless statements in public.
Statements that gives people the very wrong impression of things.
When you express things in public media, you should be a bit careful what you say.
In the end, it is you yourself that will lose credibility ..... and you may fool some nice DIY builders with your guessings.
------------------------------
First.
When National guarantee average outgoing levels of min 7 Ampere
this does also tell us that higher peaks than 7 Ampere are allowed.
Probably 10-15 Ampere depending on frequency.
From the LM3886 datasheet:
Lineup - regards
MJL21193 said:10 to 20 watts? Limited??
MJL21193 is another witness, that there are aome posters in this topic
that has got something wrong about LM3886 and the magnific National Overtures amplifliers.
They have not done there homework .. their math
Is it not sad when people go about doing baseless statements in public.
Statements that gives people the very wrong impression of things.
When you express things in public media, you should be a bit careful what you say.
In the end, it is you yourself that will lose credibility ..... and you may fool some nice DIY builders with your guessings.
------------------------------
First.
When National guarantee average outgoing levels of min 7 Ampere
this does also tell us that higher peaks than 7 Ampere are allowed.
Probably 10-15 Ampere depending on frequency.
From the LM3886 datasheet:
Lineup - regards
well lets take some practical amp into consideration...
Jeff Rowland Concentra 2
there are 6 chips per channel and tons of Capacitor Bank and power supplies but still the amp is not able to deliver tighter bass... what could be the reason? Jeff rowland couldnt make a right design?
why isnt the process can be done in this way>>
lets take one chip delivers continuous power of 2 amps at the output and lets go with 6 chips in parallel to get 12 amperes then does it works?
Lm3886 chips are the only amps where in certain reviews its said that it never shrinks the soundstage... so why cant we multiply the genuine capability of the chip amp ?
any opinions?
another possibility..
12 chips in Bridged Parallel mode with 1,40,000ufd caps with 1600VA Toroidal
since the lm3886 chip is best for mids and highs then why can
can this fill the missing element ( bass )?
anybody want to discuss on this?
Jeff Rowland Concentra 2
there are 6 chips per channel and tons of Capacitor Bank and power supplies but still the amp is not able to deliver tighter bass... what could be the reason? Jeff rowland couldnt make a right design?
why isnt the process can be done in this way>>
lets take one chip delivers continuous power of 2 amps at the output and lets go with 6 chips in parallel to get 12 amperes then does it works?
Lm3886 chips are the only amps where in certain reviews its said that it never shrinks the soundstage... so why cant we multiply the genuine capability of the chip amp ?
any opinions?
another possibility..
12 chips in Bridged Parallel mode with 1,40,000ufd caps with 1600VA Toroidal
since the lm3886 chip is best for mids and highs then why can
can this fill the missing element ( bass )?
anybody want to discuss on this?
rhythmdiy said:
It's very dubious you will receive a useful reply. Try the subjective approach: things sound the way they do and that's that
Can you really make a silk purse out of 3886s? Allow me to doubt. At the time i played with all the chips i had the following SS amps to compare with: an old Threshold, a Naim 250, an NVA and a Quad 303. And of course a large number of tube amps.I am not particularly interested in deep bass, nor do i have suitable speakers for it but mid bass quality and especially the ability to play tunes in the Linn/Naim idiom is important for me. Where i found the chips really lacking was the start/stop and playing sustained bass notes.
I used a 350VA transformer and 15,000uF per rail shared between channels.
The Threshold using multiple output devices and double the PS was immediately obvious even at very low (2-3W) power. The Naim was no match for the Threshold's ability to move air but had great, tight and tuneful mid bass. Even the old 303 was more convincing than the 3886 in the bass. And so were some of the tube amps.
If you are lucky to partner the chip amp with a pair of VERY sympathetic speakers you may really enjoy the outcome. Increasing the PS capactitance is not really a solution as it does not improve the quality of bass and has negative effects on the midrange. If chips were perfect we would all be using them.
Have another look at the 3886 datasheet.
The 11.5A (typ) and 7A (min) current figures are for Ton=10mS, not for continuous output.
Go look at the Pulse Power Limit graphs on Page 10.
@ Tc=25degC the power limit is ~92W @ Vce=40V
and reduces as Tc rises. @ Tc=125degC & Vce=40V power limit is down to ~54W.
It appears that for Tw=100mS & Tj=250degC that Spike has reduced the output current into a reactive load from 7Apk (Tc@25degC) to 2.3Apk (@25degC) and down to 1.35Apk (@125degC). That is using the absolute max pulse junction temperature rather than the max operational temperature of 150degC.
Have a look at the Safe Area vs Vce graphs on page9.
none of the curves show any data above 10A. The Safe Area vs Time graphs, even the 0.1mS pulse rises to just below 400W (I<10Apk @ 40Vce)
Tell me how I am reading National's graphs wrongly and further, convince me that these chips are not current limited.
Can someone show me where to look to find data that supports output capability in the range 10 to 15A depending on frequency?
The 11.5A (typ) and 7A (min) current figures are for Ton=10mS, not for continuous output.
Go look at the Pulse Power Limit graphs on Page 10.
@ Tc=25degC the power limit is ~92W @ Vce=40V
and reduces as Tc rises. @ Tc=125degC & Vce=40V power limit is down to ~54W.
It appears that for Tw=100mS & Tj=250degC that Spike has reduced the output current into a reactive load from 7Apk (Tc@25degC) to 2.3Apk (@25degC) and down to 1.35Apk (@125degC). That is using the absolute max pulse junction temperature rather than the max operational temperature of 150degC.
Have a look at the Safe Area vs Vce graphs on page9.
none of the curves show any data above 10A. The Safe Area vs Time graphs, even the 0.1mS pulse rises to just below 400W (I<10Apk @ 40Vce)
Tell me how I am reading National's graphs wrongly and further, convince me that these chips are not current limited.
Can someone show me where to look to find data that supports output capability in the range 10 to 15A depending on frequency?
I have been working with a customer over here the last month on a high volume audio solution.
They asked us to alter the protection of the audio IC we were designing in because it affected the sound.
We did a sound test in their listening room a few weeks ago and the modified devices (our engineers laser trimmed some stuff on the metal mask) sounded better.
We are able to plot the the protection effect of the thermal and electrical protection separately (by turning off one of them at a time).
The customer was right. On heavy bass material, the thermal protection caused power limiting. Well, you might argue, why are they not using a bigger heatsink? Because in high volume consumer electronics, cost is everything. I was amazed to dind out from our guys that the response of the thermal protection (without a heatsink) is over 1Khz - i.e. you can get the thermal protection to trigger, the ship to cool down, start running again, heat-up and re-trigger the thermal protection all in under 1ms.
They asked us to alter the protection of the audio IC we were designing in because it affected the sound.
We did a sound test in their listening room a few weeks ago and the modified devices (our engineers laser trimmed some stuff on the metal mask) sounded better.
We are able to plot the the protection effect of the thermal and electrical protection separately (by turning off one of them at a time).
The customer was right. On heavy bass material, the thermal protection caused power limiting. Well, you might argue, why are they not using a bigger heatsink? Because in high volume consumer electronics, cost is everything. I was amazed to dind out from our guys that the response of the thermal protection (without a heatsink) is over 1Khz - i.e. you can get the thermal protection to trigger, the ship to cool down, start running again, heat-up and re-trigger the thermal protection all in under 1ms.
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