a flooder can do it for any given lateral plane +/- 0 dB
a flooder can do it over it's full bandwidth, for any given lateral plane +/- 0 dB
but perhaps it is not necessary?
for instance Shahinians or most Carlssons can't do it, BTW therefore I think it's appropiate that Richard Sh. calls his designs polydirectional, not omnidirectional
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Isn't that what Toole is saying all the time: Long delayed reflections like in concert halls add to pleasant envelopment. Short delayed reflections (especially from wrong directions) like in normal living rooms add to apparent source width aka blown-up images.
Rudolf
How do you feel about stuff like:
Entry Speaker
My curiosity is piqued enough to at least hear something like this before I keep trying to mentally disect why it shouldn't be accurate.
I believe it is even more complicated than that, first of all it depends on how short is short
these speakers are not omni, they are rather polydirectional like Shahinians
generally I don't like the design which I think is compromised though judging from reviews they have some virtues of omni like 3D quality to virtual images, OTOH they have problems with recreation of recording space and with soundstaging
In a typical home listening space, RT60 is meaningless. It needs a much larger space to be useful.
dave
Well, I've got some empty cabinets about that size and some spare drivers. I'd just have to find some balls (no pun intended) to put them together, unless there is an easier design I can try that uses a single midbass and tweeter unit per channel.
we were talking about sound reflecting infinitely around a typical listening room
I agree that obviously this is not the case
Well, I didn't mean an infinite number of primary -> secondary -> tetriary, I meant to suggest not that the reflections continue to reflect infinitely, but that the primary reflection is infinite, by definition, if the sound is coming out of the speaker 360 degrees x 360 degrees, then it's hitting the first reflective surface in a blanket rather than a loose beam, right?
I'm still going to try this somehow, I'm not sure if it's to convince myself that it's bad or not.
no balls needed, just make it short and put the drivers on top, diagonally perhaps? I like it coincidental/full range but perhaps it will work also that way, reports from diyaudio users like tinitus or Elias -who even test in mono just one ordinary two-way speaker put on it's back right on the floor - speaker not Elias 😉 - are promising
choosing right crossover frequency may also be important
and when You tilt it a bit with some spikes You can get 2-way Carlsson-like speaker
I tried this just now. I set my mains on the floor, tweeters out. The space of vocals definitely took on an interesting characteristic, however in this position, the frequency response changed dramatically. I only had to make it about 30 seconds into Sara K's live performance of Vincent before I walked over and placed them back on their stands 😛
I'll probably have to make one specifically to try this, I have a feeling the off axis performance of my mains isn't so hot 90 degrees out.
authentic sound
and authentic dynamics
those are the key words
no matter what we call a design
crossover plays the major role, besides sufficient size
and authentic dynamics
those are the key words
no matter what we call a design
crossover plays the major role, besides sufficient size
My answer to the original question:
I think omnis, like dipoles, have just one "flaw" which makes them less popular with the average joes; they need to be placed away from the wall.
Apart from the fact average people don't care about the sound quality (just give them quantity) they want to be able to push the speakers against the wall to get them out of the way.
Looking only at the audiophile population I think many of them subscribe to the "Stereophile" image of what good/accurate sound is so they're stuck in very conventional designs.
I myself found I prefer multidirectional. Just by adding one pair of conventional speakers on top of another pair, only pointed at the front wall, recordings gained more realism. The reflections from the room don't detract, but add as long as these are close to the original and delayed enough.
I think omnis, like dipoles, have just one "flaw" which makes them less popular with the average joes; they need to be placed away from the wall.
Apart from the fact average people don't care about the sound quality (just give them quantity) they want to be able to push the speakers against the wall to get them out of the way.
Looking only at the audiophile population I think many of them subscribe to the "Stereophile" image of what good/accurate sound is so they're stuck in very conventional designs.
I myself found I prefer multidirectional. Just by adding one pair of conventional speakers on top of another pair, only pointed at the front wall, recordings gained more realism. The reflections from the room don't detract, but add as long as these are close to the original and delayed enough.
that was a brave try
try placing them on the floor, up against the wall, tilted 45 degr
playing forward ofcourse
but I think in any case, crossover needs to be adjusted to this situation, for optimum result
if it works 😱 you may have to build new stands 😀
My room might be kinda bad for this, they'd be between my rack in the center and my bar on the left. I've got them pulled out from the back walls, my crossovers occupy that spot in the back due to the fact that whenever I put them in the box, they don't sound right 😉
I have some open space in the basement, perhaps this weekend I'll bring some spares down there and try that.
This must be a premiere on diyAudio - someone is proclaiming that his driver is radiating radially with precision for all frequencies.
I'd say every circular driver who doesn't do that is plain crap.
Of course I was referring to the lateral plane with the driver mounted upright - not lying on the floor. How is your flooder doing in the sagittal plane of a listener? Same SPL for all frequencies?
Originally Posted by weltersys
My concept of accurate reproduction is a system that reproduces music as close as possible to how it sounded when recorded and mixed down.
I have never heard of any mix engineers that use omni speakers for mix down, there are many good reasons why they are not used for critical listening.
Additional reverberation and comb filtering not in the original recording caused by mid and high frequency reflecting off back and side walls reduces coherency and accuracy of the reproduced recorded signal in the very frequency range the ears are most sensitive to those problems.
Those problems can be avoided by using speakers with directionality, making for more accurate reproduction of recorded music.
There is enough wrong with loudspeakers to start with, adding room reflections makes those problems worse.
Room reflections can mask speaker system problems.
There is nothing wrong with anyone liking the "extra sauce" of multiple arrival times, I prefer to minimize, rather than increase reflections.
People like a lot of different things in sound "reproduction" :^).
One interesting way to recreate a spacious sound in an average listening room is to place a third speaker behind the listening position, wired from the two stereo + (positive) connections, one + to each of the third speakers terminals.
This results in only L/R difference information coming from the "phantom" speaker.
A true mono recording will have make no sound from the phantom speaker, but anything panned L/R will come out, as will reverb effects, and "out of phase" stereo.
This can be very revealing, good recordings still sound good, but bad microphone placement becomes easily heard.
The phantom speaker adds little extra room reflections (my complaint about omni speakers), but accentuates any L/R difference information by giving it a separate discrete location.
I listened to quite a bit of music that way, it was fun, but ultimately went back to "normal" stereo, prefering to hear what the mix engineer heard sitting between studio monitors.
I still have a phantom speaker wired in my sailboat , as seating positions end up being very close to the left and right speakers. The "phantom" speaker allows one to still hear the stereo image in any seat in the cabin.
For those that like the effect an omni speaker gives, they should go ga ga when they hear a phantom speaker.
The phantom speaker ideally should be similar in frequency response to the mains, but since low frequency is usually mixed mono, extended low frequency is not required. Any old speaker will suffice for a try.
The phantom speaker has not presented any problem to any receiver or power amp I have used it with, as long as they use common - terminals.
I first learned of the phantom speaker set up from Yanni, in the mid 1970's while he was playing keyboards with the Minneapolis band Archangel (before his stint with Chameleon), he has gone on to make lots of music which uses a lot of acoustic "space".
Art Welter
My concept of accurate reproduction is a system that reproduces music as close as possible to how it sounded when recorded and mixed down.
I have never heard of any mix engineers that use omni speakers for mix down, there are many good reasons why they are not used for critical listening.
Additional reverberation and comb filtering not in the original recording caused by mid and high frequency reflecting off back and side walls reduces coherency and accuracy of the reproduced recorded signal in the very frequency range the ears are most sensitive to those problems.
Those problems can be avoided by using speakers with directionality, making for more accurate reproduction of recorded music.
There is enough wrong with loudspeakers to start with, adding room reflections makes those problems worse.
Room reflections can mask speaker system problems.
There is nothing wrong with anyone liking the "extra sauce" of multiple arrival times, I prefer to minimize, rather than increase reflections.
Marcus,
People like a lot of different things in sound "reproduction" :^).
One interesting way to recreate a spacious sound in an average listening room is to place a third speaker behind the listening position, wired from the two stereo + (positive) connections, one + to each of the third speakers terminals.
This results in only L/R difference information coming from the "phantom" speaker.
A true mono recording will have make no sound from the phantom speaker, but anything panned L/R will come out, as will reverb effects, and "out of phase" stereo.
This can be very revealing, good recordings still sound good, but bad microphone placement becomes easily heard.
The phantom speaker adds little extra room reflections (my complaint about omni speakers), but accentuates any L/R difference information by giving it a separate discrete location.
I listened to quite a bit of music that way, it was fun, but ultimately went back to "normal" stereo, prefering to hear what the mix engineer heard sitting between studio monitors.
I still have a phantom speaker wired in my sailboat , as seating positions end up being very close to the left and right speakers. The "phantom" speaker allows one to still hear the stereo image in any seat in the cabin.
For those that like the effect an omni speaker gives, they should go ga ga when they hear a phantom speaker.
The phantom speaker ideally should be similar in frequency response to the mains, but since low frequency is usually mixed mono, extended low frequency is not required. Any old speaker will suffice for a try.
The phantom speaker has not presented any problem to any receiver or power amp I have used it with, as long as they use common - terminals.
I first learned of the phantom speaker set up from Yanni, in the mid 1970's while he was playing keyboards with the Minneapolis band Archangel (before his stint with Chameleon), he has gone on to make lots of music which uses a lot of acoustic "space".
Art Welter
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This sounds a lot like the ole' Hafler quadaptor, eh? I think those were two rear speakers, negatives together (or into an lpad) and positive from each to positive on the main speakers.
I did this once just for giggles. It was an interesting effect, but in the end, I always end up disconnecting such things.
Hah! Found it. http://home.indy.net/~gregdunn/dynaco/components/QD1/index.html
Interestingly, this is the product that I derived my name from.
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This must be a premiere on diyAudio - someone is proclaiming that his driver is radiating radially with precision for all frequencies.
I'd say every circular driver who doesn't do that is plain crap.
yeah! 😀 I was also feeling funny... so to speak... somewhat forced to explain to You that the driver is radiating radially because You seemed to miss that simple fact...
and what for? what's good in uniform reponse in the sagittal plane for a flooder type speaker? I can't see the point
I think it doesn't matter at all