ca90ss said:
Why do you think they go for so much and why would you rather have one over a phoenix gold?
Take a look inside one of those XES amps.....very pretty.
Dont get me wrong, I love the PPI and PG stuff, but I think the XES is in a different class(even if it is imaginary....lol).
All I am missing for my XES system is the amps.....and for what that thing is going for now($305).....I wont be bidding. Saw one go for like $100 not too long ago, still kickin myself......
Dont get me wrong, I love the PPI and PG stuff, but I think the XES is in a different class(even if it is imaginary....lol).
All I am missing for my XES system is the amps.....and for what that thing is going for now($305).....I wont be bidding. Saw one go for like $100 not too long ago, still kickin myself......
Refer to Jonny's old post:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=125844&highlight=
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=125844&highlight=
Yes I agree the ES amps are very pretty inside and surely use high quality components, but the newer Sonys are the culmination of those years of experience and they go for way less, even new. Maybe the ES have .00000001%thd and a damping factor of 2000 @ 50hz? The only benefit I see is possibly ease of repair judging by how the boards are layed out. I'd like to have two high quality amplfiers to compare with the same components to see if there was any audible difference. Maybe a phoenix gold ms amp and sony es with equivalent output capabilities and distortion values. Of course the MS amps go for a lot too...
ppia600 said:
I don't have a clue about them beyond what I've read here... I do know the ES stuff had a strong following.
In fact, Sony had a strong following as soon as it entered the car market and held it, at least, well into the 90's. Nothing Sony I worked with (all pre-ES) was remarkable in any way IMO, so when one of my buddies with a car full of prime stuff (4-PPI 2150 amps, 2- Dynaudio mid/tw, Audio Control EQ's, 4-Kicker C12's) picked an ES HU as an upgrade, I couldn't understand why.
I respect the opinions of plenty of folks in here, so I'll take their word that the ES amps are worth their salt.
IMO...
there was the XES....ES...and Explode ES....three completely different lines.
The first two, worth considering, the last one is not.
If i remember correctly...the xes was all hand built matched components, much like the orion gs gold amps....but better (opinion).
the sony es head of the mid to late 90's....some of my favorites.... there were comparable from alpine and pioneer....priced accordingly....
i just happened to install and sell the es.....so thats what i like....
there was the XES....ES...and Explode ES....three completely different lines.
The first two, worth considering, the last one is not.
If i remember correctly...the xes was all hand built matched components, much like the orion gs gold amps....but better (opinion).
the sony es head of the mid to late 90's....some of my favorites.... there were comparable from alpine and pioneer....priced accordingly....
i just happened to install and sell the es.....so thats what i like....
camusmuse:
"Mobile ES" - Was the cream of the Sony crop at the end of my installing days, and the only one I was aware of. The name suggested there was an ES home audio line as well.
I assume this line evolved into simply "ES"?
And do the ES HU's use an analog volume control? I remember my friend's having electronic preamp functions, but can't be sure.
"Mobile ES" - Was the cream of the Sony crop at the end of my installing days, and the only one I was aware of. The name suggested there was an ES home audio line as well.
I assume this line evolved into simply "ES"?
And do the ES HU's use an analog volume control? I remember my friend's having electronic preamp functions, but can't be sure.
I have one of the explod mobile es xm7527, it appears well built. Is a 2x75 and uses some strange FX50SMJ Mitsu outputs. It will run HC to 360rms x1@1ohm and .3% thd or 2x75rms at 4 ohm HV. It has a separate largish block the outputs are mounted on. I think it is half of one of these. but a little different inside. Features abound, you can even turn off the feedback. Its big and heavy, SMD on the back side, made in Japan. The outputs are very expensive. I saw one go for over 100 and the 4ch much more. It lists 58A current drain at 1 ohm HC. I never had love for sony, and much less after they got political and put a stop to the pc dvd burner/etc things they did. Do have an older HU that is really nice, worked really nice, maybe early 90s with dolby c and changer controller. I don't recall anyone selling them around here back in the day, just the cheaper stuff at retailers is all I saw. Not sure why I still have this amp, its huge on top of all that. I've seen many newer sonys that were blown up, much like many other imported amps.
tsmith -
ES or Elevated Standard started in the home line, I think(GUESS) that it was a poor man's version of the sony esprit(sp?) line that was super duper expensive home/audiophile stuff. that was before my time though....every now and then some esprit stuff will come up on audiogon.....still commands mad money.....
Pretty sure all Mobile ES was digital control....
I call mobile es, just es cause im lazy. pretty sure all car/auto es was "mobile es"....i got out before the xplode days....
ES or Elevated Standard started in the home line, I think(GUESS) that it was a poor man's version of the sony esprit(sp?) line that was super duper expensive home/audiophile stuff. that was before my time though....every now and then some esprit stuff will come up on audiogon.....still commands mad money.....
Pretty sure all Mobile ES was digital control....
I call mobile es, just es cause im lazy. pretty sure all car/auto es was "mobile es"....i got out before the xplode days....
jol50:
there's nothing wrong with an amp being big and heavy here in the USA!
camusmuse:
Ah, yes. The Japanese esoterica. Pioneer also had some ultra expensive equipment out there IIRC. I faintly remember the hype from TAA/Stereophile "stereotype" readers. Thanks for the recollection, I'll have to do a search...
Yeah, I thought so. I was hoping for another option when my Alpine 7904 goes south. I really love my old Alpine, but it can't last forever.
Anyone have suggestions for a very good indash CD with analog preamp other than Mac MX406, Clarion DRX9255, Denon Z1?Features are irrelevant, SQ and durability are the only concerns.
there's nothing wrong with an amp being big and heavy here in the USA!
camusmuse:
Ah, yes. The Japanese esoterica. Pioneer also had some ultra expensive equipment out there IIRC. I faintly remember the hype from TAA/Stereophile "stereotype" readers. Thanks for the recollection, I'll have to do a search...
Yeah, I thought so. I was hoping for another option when my Alpine 7904 goes south. I really love my old Alpine, but it can't last forever.
Anyone have suggestions for a very good indash CD with analog preamp other than Mac MX406, Clarion DRX9255, Denon Z1?Features are irrelevant, SQ and durability are the only concerns.
I bought a Pioneer 880prs because it was such a deal and has all the DSP....and I could take out any xover/EQs. But my system has gotten very little attention from me so it is not sounding the best. I had an alpine in there before, did not note a quality difference but not side by side comparison either. The EQ will sound funny if you use too much of it, but the HU will run wot with no clipping if EQ is not up then I'm not sure. The volume control is slow, I really hate encoders and slow buttons for volume. I hate them a lot. The remote works better but this is a small car so hard to use. Otherwise it works nice as it could I suppose. Would be nice to have lower than a 50Hz LP, and a parametric would be cool, and another set of outputs would be nice...but what can I say for 200 and change for a new appearing factory refurb.
Big heavy amps....long as you have a place to put them! When you have four 12s IB you run out of room in a little car, lol😀 They actually make the car drive differently, next step is to change to lighter weight stuff, as in less lbs.
Big heavy amps....long as you have a place to put them! When you have four 12s IB you run out of room in a little car, lol😀 They actually make the car drive differently, next step is to change to lighter weight stuff, as in less lbs.
camusmuse said:
It depends on which ES amp you look inside, I have seen low grade Phenolic circuit boards in one just like the one on epay right now, and I also saw low grade carbon film resistors and 85C caps. You have to look inside them as not all of them were art pieces...
The older "original" ES stuff was all high voltage inside < like +&- 75 volts as I recall. They lacked a real reliable 2 ohm rating cause they ran too hot. < 1991 and 1992 era gear>
But in a 4 ohm side by side against any brand at a 20 ampere current draw on a bench supply you could hear the difference in the Sony ES amp.
It was the only amp that never lost a SQ test at the Autophile back in the day, and we compared them all including PG and PPI, and Adcom, and Infinity etc...
The high voltage design gave it an unbeatable edge at 20 amps current draw. Sonically it just sounded better then just about everything else in or out of its class back then....
Of course with it being 20 years old and needing a restoration as bad as any other 20 year old amp, I really don't think the $305.00 bid price is reasonable. The amp will needed to be service just like any other amp this age, and the service will not be a simple repair type ordeal, it will require a dedicated hand to replace all the leaky caps, bad solder joints, and what not to bring this baby back to original spec...The high bidder is not thinking about what it will take to bring it back to original spec. Perhaps he is just another epay speculator thinking he can make a fast buck on a resell...
So is that for just the ES or the XES too? Same model amps with different guts?
I read somewhere about the high voltage advantages, forget where at the moment. Kinda sheds a new light on all those HCCA amps I've always loved....good for subs I guess.
Thanks for the info 1more...
As an installer, HCCA's were often frustrating because salesmen didn't seem to understand their purpose.
The only reason for their existence was to cheat in the low power classes in competition. Because they were marketed for competition and they were expensive, many salesmen pumped them up as the greatest thing since sliced bread.
I can't tell you how many 225's I saw sold to poor saps who ran them at 2 ohms. For some reason, logic just didn't apply to these amps. Let's see... the 225HCCA makes 50W/ch at 2 ohms and the 280GX makes 160W/ch... But the 225 is RED, it's class A (I won't even get into that), it's a COMPETITION amp, and looks cool. It just HAS to a be better amp.
The salesmen would NOT listen. They put them in their own cars sometimes at 2 ohms or even 4 ohms on the front stage. They were bored with the GX's, and the HCCA's were more exciting.
It's just like all the 4x4's you see getting groceries. Nothing but ego.
Whatever. I got paid the same to install either one and make it sound the best I could.
I did always want to stick one one a set of factory Bose speakers and see how long they held up!
tsmith1315 said:
Funny you mention that about the bose.....lol. one of my first cars had two of the bose speakers per door run on a 250 hcca.....tried it at 1 ohm and 4 ohm.......preferred the 4 ohm. It wouldnt shred your ears, but it sounded pretty damn good for no tweeters. Of course I had another 250 for the subs inthe trunk(peerless).
obviously i was suckered in by the pretty red amps myself, still some of the best looking amps made imo. i traded an autotek 7300(which i later got back and still have) for a working 250 and a fried one(ohh and a "amplink" too). still love that first surfboard....
and as for salesmen....yeah, my favorite line was...."all ya gotta do is"....thats why i started selling, tired of dealing with their "designs"
and promises......
camusmuse said:
Absolutely. I secretly want a 225 solely for the cosmetics.
Were you able to do a fairly even comparison in changing from the 7300 to the 250?
do what i do....put a 275 in a 225 sink.....(or a 2250 in a 2100 sink...🙂)
had some level of comparison, the 7300 was running the whole system after I got rid of the 250's....so it didnt have an active crossover. the 250s sounded more sterile i guess, like the difference between ss and tubes i suppose but its really all subjective.....
the 7300 definitely was a "safer" amp though....little nicer to the charging system too.....
had some level of comparison, the 7300 was running the whole system after I got rid of the 250's....so it didnt have an active crossover. the 250s sounded more sterile i guess, like the difference between ss and tubes i suppose but its really all subjective.....
the 7300 definitely was a "safer" amp though....little nicer to the charging system too.....
camusmuse said:
The reason for the better sound at higher impeadance is Damping factor, (or cone control). That is why the pros who have access to higher voltage sources use the 8 and 16ohm impeadances. It sounds better! This has always been a problem in cars where we have to start with 12 volts and work our way up. The trade off is lower impeadance to produce enough power at lower voltage.
I see an old beat up lp on there, is anyone still here? Wow is epay still so dead looking I've never seen this but not been on there that many years either.
Lightning blew my PC and still trying to get everything going on another one. So much for surge protectors and turned off power centers.
Lightning blew my PC and still trying to get everything going on another one. So much for surge protectors and turned off power centers.
Has the auction ended? I don't see it.
It's still not a great time to be selling expensive toys, the buying market still seems to be soft.
I feel for you on the PC trouble, no fun having to swap files and programs.