Maybe the typical 1980's install "look", but definitely not the typical installation. At least not in 1980's Atlanta. That took some pretty good effort to get 6-10's in that little trunk. And we seldom sold that many amps to one person.
Like some grungy old Led Zeppelin, or the local hot rod that would blow everyone else's doors off but looked like it was built in the back yard - there's something of a raucous satisfaction in the old straightforward performance-only installations.
I have to admit, I had the same initial reaction as Envision. But after the responses, I had to stop and think back.
I took immense pride in my own work, but most of the day to day stuff didn't involve much more cosmetic attention than that. Especially in the trunk. Show quality work took a lot of time, and most folks were already stretching just to buy the stuff and pay me to get it in the car. "Another $50 per hour just to make it pretty? Scr#w that."
Which leads to one last point. The 2 or 3 absolute BEST SOUNDING car audio systems I have EVER heard looked about the same, maybe worse. Plenty of factory demo cars are included in those observations. Granted, I haven't seen any in a few years, but I did listen to Richard Clark's legendary Grand National, and a couple other IASCA Nationals contenders from the 90's. They looked great, but honestly weren't the best sounding systems I'd listened to.
Contests got old quick when the best looking cars won over the best sounding cars. (And no, I wasn't competing.) I'll take performance over visuals every day of the week.
Here is an old-school amp you don't see everyday. It is a Linear Power, 42-inches long. Pictured next to it is a US Amps Vlx-400 and a few other pieces to show how big this thing is. Definitely old-school.
EnvisionAudio, thanks for clearing that up.
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg278/tomtomjr/CAR AUDIO/P1012582.jpg
EnvisionAudio, thanks for clearing that up.
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg278/tomtomjr/CAR AUDIO/P1012582.jpg
Thats a nice Linear is it real,did it come out of a Kicker(pyle)Demo car.
Speaking of US AMPS,when Jack and Rodney were here in FLA.,they had a display wall which contained what they called the strongest amp ever.And I believe it was at the time,a Second Generation(So-called First) amp that was at least 80 inches long,it never made production.But it definatlly had life to it,circuit board,componets,power wires.
So is the Linear Power real,or is it two amps in one chassis
Speaking of US AMPS,when Jack and Rodney were here in FLA.,they had a display wall which contained what they called the strongest amp ever.And I believe it was at the time,a Second Generation(So-called First) amp that was at least 80 inches long,it never made production.But it definatlly had life to it,circuit board,componets,power wires.
So is the Linear Power real,or is it two amps in one chassis
tomtomjr said:
These are supposed to be pictures of the internals:
http://www.realmofexcursion.com/ampguts/USAmps_VLX-400/
Old School amplifiers
Interesting I see some posts of the so called "class A amps.
In car audio there is no such thing as a class A amplifier.
Please read what I posted on our old web site at
http://www.zedaudiocorp.com/Technical/Amplifier-Classes.htm
Here is the meat of the article I wrote
For an amplifier to be classified as “Class A” it is required that the standing current in the output stage be equal to or greater than the maximum load current. This means that if we are using a typical 4 ohm speaker, its impedance may drop to say 1.5 ohms at some frequency. If we have a 50 watt per channel amplifier this requires 14.14 volts to be developed across the load (speaker). So with a 4 ohm load, the current is 14.14/4 = 3.53 amps RMS or 5A peak. With a 1.5 ohm load it is 9.42 amps RMS or 13.32A peak. So in order for our amplifier to remain in pure class A (assuming the typical 4 ohm speaker goes to 1.5 ohms) it must idle at 9.42 amps RMS PER CHANNEL.
Let’s see how the numbers turn out. The 50 watt amplifier runs off supply rails of about +/-25 volts (let’s also assume that this is regulated). The wattage at idle is 13.32 x 50 = 666 watts per channel. This is a total of 1332 watts of heat when the amplifier is just sitting around doing nothing! Let us compare this to if the amplifier ONLY had to drive a 4 ohm load the dissipation would be 5 x 50 = 250 watts per channel and 500 watts total, still not an insignificant amount of heat.
And these dissipation figures do not include the switching power supply which has to deliver this continuous power.
Add in its 15% inefficiency factor and see what the current draw form the battery is and the heat from the sinks.
Even a 10w/ch pure class A in the car is not possible in practice.
We refurbish and repair many old school amps as these owners young and old alike prefer the sound of these older amps. They prefer to spend the $100-150 and get an amplifier which will work well for another 15 years than buy the junk which now owns the amplifier market.
Steve Mantz
Zed Audio Corp.
Interesting I see some posts of the so called "class A amps.
In car audio there is no such thing as a class A amplifier.
Please read what I posted on our old web site at
http://www.zedaudiocorp.com/Technical/Amplifier-Classes.htm
Here is the meat of the article I wrote
For an amplifier to be classified as “Class A” it is required that the standing current in the output stage be equal to or greater than the maximum load current. This means that if we are using a typical 4 ohm speaker, its impedance may drop to say 1.5 ohms at some frequency. If we have a 50 watt per channel amplifier this requires 14.14 volts to be developed across the load (speaker). So with a 4 ohm load, the current is 14.14/4 = 3.53 amps RMS or 5A peak. With a 1.5 ohm load it is 9.42 amps RMS or 13.32A peak. So in order for our amplifier to remain in pure class A (assuming the typical 4 ohm speaker goes to 1.5 ohms) it must idle at 9.42 amps RMS PER CHANNEL.
Let’s see how the numbers turn out. The 50 watt amplifier runs off supply rails of about +/-25 volts (let’s also assume that this is regulated). The wattage at idle is 13.32 x 50 = 666 watts per channel. This is a total of 1332 watts of heat when the amplifier is just sitting around doing nothing! Let us compare this to if the amplifier ONLY had to drive a 4 ohm load the dissipation would be 5 x 50 = 250 watts per channel and 500 watts total, still not an insignificant amount of heat.
And these dissipation figures do not include the switching power supply which has to deliver this continuous power.
Add in its 15% inefficiency factor and see what the current draw form the battery is and the heat from the sinks.
Even a 10w/ch pure class A in the car is not possible in practice.
We refurbish and repair many old school amps as these owners young and old alike prefer the sound of these older amps. They prefer to spend the $100-150 and get an amplifier which will work well for another 15 years than buy the junk which now owns the amplifier market.
Steve Mantz
Zed Audio Corp.
He kept the car spotless in operation, I wish I had photos of when it was cleaned up/in use.EnvisionAudio said:
Hey, you don't have to defend it - it was a casual observation. I take responsibility for my opinion.
That is a big LP amp....lets find the retail price and figure inflation for today's price
I remember getting a price of 350 on a PAII and I worked there, I could have a nice winterbeater car for less at the time.When I worked in a larger shop in the late 80s I hardly ever saw large systems. The biggest one I did was a LP 5002 on a pair of RF 15s plus it had two pair of 8s in it on a 3002, two pair of mids on a LP, six tweeters on a SS, and all on X02 LPs. It was mostly for out of vehicle (party) use and worked well for that....I tuned on it with ear plugs. But this is MI and a far cry from say CA where I am sure it was much more common. Hardly anyone had subs then, in fact I had to harp on sales to sell 10s as they put out a lot more than 8s. I think they made more on the 8s or something. Most all subs were IB and if you had 10s you could run a 2x75 and actually get some bass going....and that was uncommon.
Re: Old School amplifiers
Well said Steve,
I have been trying to explain Class A design to all the car audio buff's I know for years and how inefficient it is and what a trunk BBQ it would make and people just go on believing the Marketing hipe of sales engineers over the educated real knowledge of those < Like yourself >that helped build this industry in the first place. I just wish your post was a Sticky here in car audio. It would explain a lot to those who chose to believe the salesman instead of the educated engineer....Thank you !
MOER said:
Well said Steve,
I have been trying to explain Class A design to all the car audio buff's I know for years and how inefficient it is and what a trunk BBQ it would make and people just go on believing the Marketing hipe of sales engineers over the educated real knowledge of those < Like yourself >that helped build this industry in the first place. I just wish your post was a Sticky here in car audio. It would explain a lot to those who chose to believe the salesman instead of the educated engineer....Thank you !
Re: Re: Old School amplifiers
I know there are some that will, but most can hardly hit 30Hz in typical use. I just tried a bunch of average subs and what a joke. One cf for a 12 recommended and even 1.25cf was a one note wonder. Then I finally had time to install my IB 12s.
From what I read you don't need class A in a class AB over what, one watt or something. I have an old alpine that says nothing about class A, but it runs hot all the time and really hot at 2 ohms. Finally got a manual one day and it says nothing about using it at 2 ohms....lol. Its not bridgeable either, but I did run a fan on it. One of the best sounding amps I have ever used.
Kind of like how the manual of near every sub says it will work in a tiny box1moreamp said:
I know there are some that will, but most can hardly hit 30Hz in typical use. I just tried a bunch of average subs and what a joke. One cf for a 12 recommended and even 1.25cf was a one note wonder. Then I finally had time to install my IB 12s.
From what I read you don't need class A in a class AB over what, one watt or something. I have an old alpine that says nothing about class A, but it runs hot all the time and really hot at 2 ohms. Finally got a manual one day and it says nothing about using it at 2 ohms....lol. Its not bridgeable either, but I did run a fan on it. One of the best sounding amps I have ever used.
Re: Old School amplifiers
What about the HSS Fidelity HT230 rated at 30x2@4ohm with a 23 amp idle current?
http://www.hssfidelity.it/english/Main_page.html
MOER said:
What about the HSS Fidelity HT230 rated at 30x2@4ohm with a 23 amp idle current?
http://www.hssfidelity.it/english/Main_page.html
Class A amplifiers
Dear ca90ss
Well what about this amplifier with 23 amps idle current?
Firstly it is a tube amplifier.
Secondly if you did not notice it uses tubes which have filaments
Thirdly these little ol' filaments draw static current.
Fourthly this static current is drawn from the battery.
Fifthly each 6550 tube draws 1.6 amps at 6.3v so 4 tubes = 6.4 amps before we begin.
This does not include the step down regulators from 12 to 6.3v though I do admit I have no idea if he uses this or puts the fils in series or uses a switching regulator to drop the 12v to 6.3v!
Lastly a pair of 6550 tubes is 100% incapable of being run in pure class A to deliver 30 watts of audio power.
I know this as I have been designing tube amps since 1966.
So where the extra 16.6 amps of current draw come from is anyone's guess.
The PDF on their web site is corrupted so I could not down load it.
You can argue about this all day long, tube or solid state a class A amplifier of any appreciable power is not practicaL in a car.
Steve Mantz
Dear ca90ss
Well what about this amplifier with 23 amps idle current?
Firstly it is a tube amplifier.
Secondly if you did not notice it uses tubes which have filaments
Thirdly these little ol' filaments draw static current.
Fourthly this static current is drawn from the battery.
Fifthly each 6550 tube draws 1.6 amps at 6.3v so 4 tubes = 6.4 amps before we begin.
This does not include the step down regulators from 12 to 6.3v though I do admit I have no idea if he uses this or puts the fils in series or uses a switching regulator to drop the 12v to 6.3v!
Lastly a pair of 6550 tubes is 100% incapable of being run in pure class A to deliver 30 watts of audio power.
I know this as I have been designing tube amps since 1966.
So where the extra 16.6 amps of current draw come from is anyone's guess.
The PDF on their web site is corrupted so I could not down load it.
You can argue about this all day long, tube or solid state a class A amplifier of any appreciable power is not practicaL in a car.
Steve Mantz
Excellent break down of that tube amps high current draw. High amperage current draw at idle does not equate to class A design. Although high current draw is expected in any true class A design.
Don't let inefficient and or poor design mislead you into thinking that someone has found a way to break the laws of physics surrounding amplifier design.
Recently a car amp company out of Los Vegas stated selling a solid state amp claiming class A 10 watt rating, and a ultra low distortion rating of 0.0005%.
Well once the seal was broken it was a Class AB amp with a output in the range of 75 watts per channel at 4 ohms. It even looked like a SoundStream Reference amp in its layout and design for the most part. It sounded OK and was built pretty decent. All in all an acceptable amplifier, but not class A, and not 10 watts output either.
Something all of you folks should think about:
The IHF and FTC federal laws and regs that has covered your home and commercial audio gear for the last 40+ years does not relate and or apply to car audio gear. < Don't ask me why, as my only guess would be was there was no car audio market back when the federal legislation was put to law by American audio manufacturers.
So pretty much any car audio maker can say whatever they want and there is no watch dog or federal law to prevent them from BSing you till the cows come home.
Even the latest new car audio spec's that were adopted in 2006 are not federally regulated. In fact it was the car audio industry that made those new spec's. Self regulation its called.
This does not mean that all manufacturers are not upholding standards. That is for you the end user to look into and figure out who is being responsible.
Caveat Emptor......English Translation: Latin, caveat emtor, buyer beware.
Don't let inefficient and or poor design mislead you into thinking that someone has found a way to break the laws of physics surrounding amplifier design.
Recently a car amp company out of Los Vegas stated selling a solid state amp claiming class A 10 watt rating, and a ultra low distortion rating of 0.0005%.
Well once the seal was broken it was a Class AB amp with a output in the range of 75 watts per channel at 4 ohms. It even looked like a SoundStream Reference amp in its layout and design for the most part. It sounded OK and was built pretty decent. All in all an acceptable amplifier, but not class A, and not 10 watts output either.
Something all of you folks should think about:
The IHF and FTC federal laws and regs that has covered your home and commercial audio gear for the last 40+ years does not relate and or apply to car audio gear. < Don't ask me why, as my only guess would be was there was no car audio market back when the federal legislation was put to law by American audio manufacturers.
So pretty much any car audio maker can say whatever they want and there is no watch dog or federal law to prevent them from BSing you till the cows come home.
Even the latest new car audio spec's that were adopted in 2006 are not federally regulated. In fact it was the car audio industry that made those new spec's. Self regulation its called.
This does not mean that all manufacturers are not upholding standards. That is for you the end user to look into and figure out who is being responsible.
Caveat Emptor......English Translation: Latin, caveat emtor, buyer beware.
what do you guys think of this? claims to be class a and is also valve and £4000!!
http://www.genesiscaraudio.net/
http://www.genesiscaraudio.net/
EnvisionAudio said:
I'm not sure how a valve (tube) preamplifier constitutes a valve power amplifier. Besides, a valve preamplifier sounds very similar to solid state. Blah blah, impedance matching...blah blah blah.
According to the press release, the amp section is solid state that is claimed to be class A to 30W then goes into AB...is something like this REALLY class A?