Daniel-A said:
well, I suppose those houses are for DIY audio fans there who have nothing to do with explosives strapped to the chests of kid bombers? Of course, those peace-loving people wouldn't do anything like that, right?
Daniel-A said:
He is just trying to prevent people, some of them live in the great land of Europe, from continueing what Hitler has been trying to do.
Daniel-A said:
None.
Daniel-A said:
It's up to those suicde bomers.
Daniel-A said:
Or do the suicde bombers have to do to Israle what Hitler did to the Jew?
Daniel-A said:
you suppose Israle just like to bring those suicide bombing onto themselves? That's their national past time?
Daniel-A said:
Yeah. They would appease to the suicde bombers, like those european countries did to hitler, with "great" success.
Daniel-A said:
so that we can all witness the great mistake we made before the WWII?
To say that you failed to undestand the most basic situation in that region is an understatement.
sss said:i dont know what causes the europien countries to hate the USA and Israel that much
I think it is often not hatred and not directed towards the countries
and their population per se, but it is rather the current politics of
both countries. I used to be quite Israel-friendly and didn't bother
much about the palestinians, but after Jenin i started to ask
myself what was going on and started to realize that the
palestinians are also human beings who should not get their
houses destroyed, and Israel suddenly started to behave in
what appeared to be unacceptable ways. I still wonder why
the Red Cross and other organizationa were not let into Jenin
to see for themselves what was happening. Security? Bah!!
I hate terrorism and fully understand that you want and must
do something about the suicide bombers. That does not mean
you are allowed to do anything. Why destroy the house of the
family of suicide bombers? How do you know they were involved
or even supported what happened? How can you justify to let
the palestinian people starve just because you are afraid some
wanted guys will sneak out in empty UN containers? Those
things are called collective punishment and are usually not
considered acceptable. Please correct me if you think this
a general misunderstanding in all media here.
sss said:
But it is not the suicide bomber you punish, it is their families
who might have known nothing about it and may not even
support what they did. If you are determined enough to blow
yourself up you most certainly don't care if you familys
house gets destroyed, so I can't see the strategy will have
any effect. I wish I had a suggestion for a way to
stop them, but I don't. I think, but cannot know, that the
suicide bombers are mainly controlled by religious fanatics
so the only way, if there is a way at all, would be to turn
the palestinian people against these fanatics. That means
you must give the palestinians some hope and treat them
differently. What if you stopped these raids and withdrew
from all settlements and the world started to pump aid into
the palestinian areas to raise their standard of living and
give them a chance to start industries etc. to support
themselves? Maybe, maybe that would make them happy
enough to turn against the suicide bombers in order not
to lose this increased standard of living. Yeah, it is probably
not realistic, but I think something like that would be needed.
I know it is just wishful thinking, but nobody down there
has a good life right now. You both live in fear of each other.
Christer said:
would you consider suicide bombing more acceptable?
I don't like collective punishments too. But if the choice is between collective punishement of suicde bombers and getting blow up in pieces by suicde bombers, I will select collective punishment (and physical elimination) of suicde bombers.
I didn't have a lot of sympathy for Israle quite frankly until 9/11. and I had lived through the 1993 bombing of the towers but wasn't close enough to witness what happened. but I lived through 9/11 and lost a friend of mine. after that personal experience, I have a lot of appreciation for the restraints the Isralies have shown after that what they have gone through. and quite frankly, it is hard for anyone to understand why the isralies are doing what they are doing, until and unless you have personally experienced what they experience every day.
for those who critize the pre-empt policy of the US, you really ought to hold you judgement until and unless you have a 9/11-like event on your own soil.
millwood said:
I have said several times, clearly, that I do not find the suicide
bombings acceptable. It is directed towards innocent civilians
and must be considered a form of terrorist activity. However,
as I just said in my previous response to SSS, I do not think
that the Israeli method is neither justifiable nor effective. I
think the only effect it has is to throw more gasoline on the
fire by angering ordinary palestinians who might not previously
have supported the suicide bombings, but may now change
their mind and do so, perhaps even become suicide bombers
themselves.
You have all my sympathy regarding 9/11. I happened to have
the TV on for some reason when it happened and I was quite
schocked at the event, when I eventually realized what was
happening. I did think it was justified to go into Afghanistan.
Iraq is a different story though, but let's wait ten years and
then ask the Iraqis if it was good or bad and worth
the bloodshed. I still don't think it had any justification wrt.
al-Queda.
Also, don't forget that Europe has been torn by war several
times, also before WWII, and many european countries have
suffered repeated terrorist acts, although not on such a grand
scale as 9/11. It is mainly your remote geographical location
that has spared you from these things previously, and when
it suddenly happened you seem to think you are the first in
the world to experience it. Ask the british who had IRA, ask
the spanish who have ETA, ask the germans who had the
RFA, who BTW also made a terrorist act in my country over
30 years ago, etc. etc. This does not excuse al-Queda and
they are dangerous to us all, no doubt about it. Since 9/11,
and also before that, european police forces has preemped
a scaringly high number of al-Queda related terrorist attacks,
but so far, they have all been stopped in time, except the
tragic train bombing in Madrid.
SY, it was not that much that the Jenin incident itself suddenly
made me turn 180 degrees (and I haven't turned 190 degrees
either, by the way). Before that I had just stopped bothering
about the whole area since I was so tired of the endless
stories of violence in the area. Jenin seemed to be something
new and terrible, which perhaps it wasn't, but whatever happened,
the event made me bother about the conflict again and try
following the news reports from the area for a while again.
My previous view on the Israeli-palestinian conflict was rather
Israel-friendly and heavily coloured by reading a lot of Leon Uris
as a teenager. Needless to say, that was hardly an objective
source. It is so easy to say that Israel is a western country
and the israelis are like us and the palestinians are all just
violent muslim fanatics, but it isn't that easy. I am sure most
people on both sides are ordinary decent people who just
want to live in peace an quiet.
made me turn 180 degrees (and I haven't turned 190 degrees
either, by the way). Before that I had just stopped bothering
about the whole area since I was so tired of the endless
stories of violence in the area. Jenin seemed to be something
new and terrible, which perhaps it wasn't, but whatever happened,
the event made me bother about the conflict again and try
following the news reports from the area for a while again.
My previous view on the Israeli-palestinian conflict was rather
Israel-friendly and heavily coloured by reading a lot of Leon Uris
as a teenager. Needless to say, that was hardly an objective
source. It is so easy to say that Israel is a western country
and the israelis are like us and the palestinians are all just
violent muslim fanatics, but it isn't that easy. I am sure most
people on both sides are ordinary decent people who just
want to live in peace an quiet.
Most sensible. It's, at worst, a very small regional conflict compared with other things going on. It's very important to sss, since he lives there. It's slightly important to me, since much of my family lives there. But for the rest of the world, it's a convenient distraction and useful symbol, Orwell's Goldstein.
Christer said:
it is clearly ineffective and questionably justifiable. But it is also clearly the only alternative available to the Isralies facing an enemy that is determined to eliminate the state of Israle.
You simply cannot negotiate and have peace with someone who will see to your complete physical destruction. As long as the Palestianians have their eyes set on driving the state of Israle into the ocean, there will be not peace for anyone.
So what is the best alternative in this situation? forcing the Palestians to come to a more sensible solution. If that means the use of brutal force, I am all for it.
the international community needs to realize that the more support they give to the Palestianisns in the use of terrorism to rebuild their country, the more we prolong a miserable process for all parties (especially the palestianins) and we impose more suffering onto the palestianisns. We need to make it absolutely clear to the Palestianians that we will not support their just cause of establishing a Palestantian state as long as they resort to terrorism.
I am of the believe that the only way to communicate with a terrorist is to terrorize him or her into giving up terrorism. It is good for us, for the terrorist, and other potential terrorists too.
What is interesting is that what the Palestanians are fighting for was essentially offered by Barak years ago, had the Palestantians taken it. Instead, they answered it with this current round of uprising.
SY said:
I am not sure it is such a small and local conflict SY. Don't you
see how many muslim religious fanatics and terrorists use it
as an excuse to attack the US and the western world? As I
said before, if this conflict could be solved, they would suddenly
have to tend to their own problems in the arab world or speak
out plainly that they actually hate the western world regardless
of Israel.
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