SY said:
Fortunately I am not a politician. I hope they are better
informed than I am.
I have no intention to preach or be dogmatic anyway. I express
my thoughts mainly to get feedback on them. It helps myself
to understand this strange world a little better, and maybe
it sometimes helps someone else too. It is always good to
learn about different points of view to open ones own eyes
a bit more.
Actually, they do to a very similar (maybe even greater) extent. Look back over the past few decades at which coalitions have been involved in getting various Prime Ministers in and out of office. The failure of Barak was the driving force in Likud taking power four years ago. And if Sharon fails, he'll be replaced by a leftist whose coalition will no doubt include the Arab caucus.
Democracy is messy. It's inefficient. And, as the saying goes, it's the worst possible system with the exception of all the other ones.
Daniel-A said:
Well, Russia comes to mind first (though that doesn't do much to support my thesis). And, really, there are lots of countries where being publicly involved with an organization who's aim is the violent overthrow of the government will get you and your family killed. That doesn't make what Israel is doing right, or even in their own best interest (but what do I know, I'm no military expert). I just don't see that the situation there is qualitatively different from the situation in Chechnya, or Ambon, or in a depressingly long list of other places.
Just off the top of my head, I can think of separatist movements that are being violently surpressed in the UK, Spain, France, Russia, Colombia, Peru, Mexico, Thailand, Indonesia, Phillipines, New Guinea, China, Nepal, Georgia, Azerbaijan, India, Turkey, Sudan, and Israel. And I'm just an ignorant American, no doubt you can think of more. Of all of these, why is Israel the only one that inspires mass demonstrations?
SY said:
To seek to equate the way Israel seeks to hold on to territory with the situation in Northern Ireland is well past ridiculous. The attitude of successive goverments has always been that should the majority vote to join the South, then its between them and the South.
Far more relevant to this thread is that at no point were large part of the country turned into free-fire zones nor were large chunks of the South invaded and used as a buffer zone. Helicopter gunships did not hover over Belfast in the dead of night firing rockets into blocks of flats and armoured bulldozers did not roam the badlands of South Armagh demolishing everything in sight.
Rob M said:
If you were familiar with the Omagh bombing and the Real IRA in general, you would realise just how bitterly comical the notion that the Real IRA is being violently suppressed is.
B.VDBOS said:
Given that their ultimate aim was unification with the South then, no, they did not.
rfbrw said:
Sure, they're not the same. But there are obvious parallels, and at times over the last 40 years the situation in Northern Ireland has been more violent than the situation in Israel at the same time. Yet Northern Ireland is seen by most of the world as an internal matter for the UK to deal with (though not in my old neighborhood in San Francisco), while Israel is somehow the center of all the world's problems.
Strange, I don't find anything funny about it. What's your point? It's true that the war in Northern Ireland is mostly past tense now, but that's really got no bearing on the argument I'm trying to make.
Said old rumma
Dance my puppets
Got your HSS i.d number yet
Dance my puppets
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Got your HSS i.d number yet
None that I can see.
Utter rot. Even at its height, the situation was never that bad. Certainly no MBT's or airstrikes or invasions.
That's probably because it is an internal matter for the UK and rather than seek to invade the Republic of Ireland, the UK goverment enlisted their help in reaching a solution.
Ahhh, the good old days. The IRA's strategy was always the "The Armalite and the Ballot box". Not so keen on terrorists in the US these days, I hear.
The idea that the Real IRA is being violently suppressed would be extremely funny if they weren't so dangerous. They were alledged to have killed nearly 30 people at Omagh yet the most serious legal sanction they have ever faced is to have a member found guilty of belonging to a proscribed organisation and that was in the Republic. In the UK, a judge recently ruled that the Real IRA was not a proscribed organisation.
They did not loose.
A truce suggests there was a formal declaration of war. In the words of the IRA they have "put their arms beyond use".
rfbrw said:
You wont here the English saying that, it may start the conflict up again
rfbrw said:
Threre are deep deep deep devisions from top to bottem in Iraland that have age old origins that could be "used" at any time
As far as putting their arms beyond use, thats a political gift, they didnt use them anyway
This is the enemy
This is the enemy
By Nissan Ratzlav-Katz May 31, 2004
[WARNING: The following contains graphic descriptions of violence.]
Nick Berg, an American from Philadelphia, was kidnapped and tortuously beheaded by Arabs in Iraq sometime in May. The murderers filmed the deed and proudly displayed the victim's severed head.
After killing six Israeli soldiers in an attack on an armored vehicle in Gaza, the Arabs near the scene of the carnage gleefully held aloft human body parts in front of rolling cameras. One of the Arab terrorists was later interviewed on film with what appeared to be a human head on his desk in front of him.
Earlier this month, after shooting at Tali Hatuel's car, causing it to skid and stop, Arab terrorists walked over to the vehicle to finish the occupants off. They looked at the heavily pregnant mother and her four no-doubt frightened girls; the youngest was two years old. And then shot them all. At point-blank range. With sadistic satisfaction, they systematically murdered Tali Hatuel and her unborn son, as well as all of Tali's daughters - Hila, age 11, Hadar, 9, Roni, 7, and two-year-old Meirav.
In Fallujah in March, crowds of townspeople dragged four American civilians out of their vehicles, shot or beat them to death, mutilated their bodies, dragged them through the streets, suspended them from a bridge and burned them. And they danced and cheered. With their children.
In Ramallah in 2000, two Israeli soldiers were kidnapped, beaten, stabbed countless times, had their eyes gouged out, and were literally disemboweled and dismembered by an Arab lynch mob.
The people - and I use the term loosely - who carried out the initial beatings threw one of the victims down to the waiting mob, where his face was further crushed with stones, feet, fists and even a heavy metal window frame. One Jew was set on fire and dragged along the street as Arab onlookers danced and cheered. Some of the butchers celebrated their crimes with the victims' internal organs. One of the killers, famously captured on film, proudly displayed his blood-soaked hands to the cheering Ramallah crowd.
And it gets worse. In 2003, nearly two years later, Arab parents in Gaza cheered again when their little children dressed up as members of the Ramallah lynch mob, complete with hands painted blood red, for a kindergarten graduation ceremony.
According to a report by Dr. Michael Widlanski, an Israeli Arabic expert, the Voice of Palestine called the attack on the Hatuels "an act of heroic martyrdom." The targeted children and their mother, the PA radio reported only as "five settlers."
Among the participants at the funerals of the Hatuel family members was President of Israel Moshe Katsav. He said, "This day of blood will be engraved in our history. An earthquake has happened. No one in the world can stand apathetically by in the face of these acts by such evil people. Where are those who speak in the name of Allah?"
National Review contributing editor David Frum posed the same question in his May 12 "Diary" on NRO: "Where are the imams?" he asked.
Some of "those who speak in the name of Allah," Mr. President, were busy sawing Nick Berg's head from his body in Iraq. "Allah is great!" they shouted in triumphal glee as they killed their bound and helpless victim. The imams are in the mosques, Mr. Frum, waving swords and exhorting their followers to behead a Jew: "Allah willing, we will cut off his head! Oh Jews! Allah is great! Allah is great!" They are also in Saudi Arabian palaces, telling their subjects that they are 95% certain Zionists are behind Islamist terrorism. They are also writing for the Arab media, explaining that Jews are behind all the evil in the world. And they are even organizing soccer matches, Mr. President, honoring mass murderers.
This is the enemy. Don't look away.
Perhaps when another rally is held in support of Iraqi "resistance" or "Palestinian liberation" somewhere in the world, counter-protesters can remind the ever-so-sensitive and progressive demonstrators of Nick Berg's scream of pain, or of two-year-old Meirav Hatuel cowering in her car seat, or of the Ramallah or Fallujah savages dancing with human entrails.
During the lynch of the two IDF soldiers who had taken a wrong turn into Ramallah in 2000, one of the Arab murderers paused in his savage beating to answer a cell phone belonging to one of the dying soldiers. He told the worried voice on the other end of the line, "We are killing your husband."
There is a Talmudic dictum that states, "One who is merciful to the cruel, will ultimately cause cruelty to the merciful."
It seems to me that we, Israelis and Americans, have proven the Talmudic sages absolutely correct. Please, no more mercy.
Views expressed by the author do not necessarily reflect those of israelinsider.
Israel Insider
http://web.israelinsider.com/bin/en...spWho=Article^l3691&enZone=Views&enVersion=0&
This is the enemy
By Nissan Ratzlav-Katz May 31, 2004
[WARNING: The following contains graphic descriptions of violence.]
Nick Berg, an American from Philadelphia, was kidnapped and tortuously beheaded by Arabs in Iraq sometime in May. The murderers filmed the deed and proudly displayed the victim's severed head.
After killing six Israeli soldiers in an attack on an armored vehicle in Gaza, the Arabs near the scene of the carnage gleefully held aloft human body parts in front of rolling cameras. One of the Arab terrorists was later interviewed on film with what appeared to be a human head on his desk in front of him.
Earlier this month, after shooting at Tali Hatuel's car, causing it to skid and stop, Arab terrorists walked over to the vehicle to finish the occupants off. They looked at the heavily pregnant mother and her four no-doubt frightened girls; the youngest was two years old. And then shot them all. At point-blank range. With sadistic satisfaction, they systematically murdered Tali Hatuel and her unborn son, as well as all of Tali's daughters - Hila, age 11, Hadar, 9, Roni, 7, and two-year-old Meirav.
In Fallujah in March, crowds of townspeople dragged four American civilians out of their vehicles, shot or beat them to death, mutilated their bodies, dragged them through the streets, suspended them from a bridge and burned them. And they danced and cheered. With their children.
In Ramallah in 2000, two Israeli soldiers were kidnapped, beaten, stabbed countless times, had their eyes gouged out, and were literally disemboweled and dismembered by an Arab lynch mob.
The people - and I use the term loosely - who carried out the initial beatings threw one of the victims down to the waiting mob, where his face was further crushed with stones, feet, fists and even a heavy metal window frame. One Jew was set on fire and dragged along the street as Arab onlookers danced and cheered. Some of the butchers celebrated their crimes with the victims' internal organs. One of the killers, famously captured on film, proudly displayed his blood-soaked hands to the cheering Ramallah crowd.
And it gets worse. In 2003, nearly two years later, Arab parents in Gaza cheered again when their little children dressed up as members of the Ramallah lynch mob, complete with hands painted blood red, for a kindergarten graduation ceremony.
According to a report by Dr. Michael Widlanski, an Israeli Arabic expert, the Voice of Palestine called the attack on the Hatuels "an act of heroic martyrdom." The targeted children and their mother, the PA radio reported only as "five settlers."
Among the participants at the funerals of the Hatuel family members was President of Israel Moshe Katsav. He said, "This day of blood will be engraved in our history. An earthquake has happened. No one in the world can stand apathetically by in the face of these acts by such evil people. Where are those who speak in the name of Allah?"
National Review contributing editor David Frum posed the same question in his May 12 "Diary" on NRO: "Where are the imams?" he asked.
Some of "those who speak in the name of Allah," Mr. President, were busy sawing Nick Berg's head from his body in Iraq. "Allah is great!" they shouted in triumphal glee as they killed their bound and helpless victim. The imams are in the mosques, Mr. Frum, waving swords and exhorting their followers to behead a Jew: "Allah willing, we will cut off his head! Oh Jews! Allah is great! Allah is great!" They are also in Saudi Arabian palaces, telling their subjects that they are 95% certain Zionists are behind Islamist terrorism. They are also writing for the Arab media, explaining that Jews are behind all the evil in the world. And they are even organizing soccer matches, Mr. President, honoring mass murderers.
This is the enemy. Don't look away.
Perhaps when another rally is held in support of Iraqi "resistance" or "Palestinian liberation" somewhere in the world, counter-protesters can remind the ever-so-sensitive and progressive demonstrators of Nick Berg's scream of pain, or of two-year-old Meirav Hatuel cowering in her car seat, or of the Ramallah or Fallujah savages dancing with human entrails.
During the lynch of the two IDF soldiers who had taken a wrong turn into Ramallah in 2000, one of the Arab murderers paused in his savage beating to answer a cell phone belonging to one of the dying soldiers. He told the worried voice on the other end of the line, "We are killing your husband."
There is a Talmudic dictum that states, "One who is merciful to the cruel, will ultimately cause cruelty to the merciful."
It seems to me that we, Israelis and Americans, have proven the Talmudic sages absolutely correct. Please, no more mercy.
Views expressed by the author do not necessarily reflect those of israelinsider.
Israel Insider
http://web.israelinsider.com/bin/en...spWho=Article^l3691&enZone=Views&enVersion=0&
Re: This is the enemy
Another story from the "Israelinsider"
Is this an Israeli site or an American site (english language only?)
Is this story Ant-semitism or anti-French propaganda?
Heckled off stage?
Israelinsider
Expatica
Francais.altermedia
Google for "Jennifer Djaoui"
Another story from the "Israelinsider"
Is this an Israeli site or an American site (english language only?)
Is this story Ant-semitism or anti-French propaganda?
Heckled off stage?
Israelinsider
Expatica
Francais.altermedia
Google for "Jennifer Djaoui"
Re Re: This is the enemy
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