Yes,SED(ex-svetlana/st.Petersburg)are indeed very serious tube manufacturers.Old Reflector tubes are also good(and underrated).JJ are said to use old Tesla machinery(a good thing),and Ei used Philips machinery(a very good thing).If Ei start making tubes again we might be lucky to have another serious choice.
JJ's were cut from the list early on because of many reported reliability issues. I too hope that EI will be back with their former quality intact! Sovtek/EH (Reflektor) has been the choice of Conrad Johnson for a while now.
I have a quad of the older Svetlana "winged C" that's about halfway through their life (or more). I concur with Panicos comment about their sound. It was the offer of cryogenically treated SED's and Watfords description that made me buy a new quad of these.
I have a quad of the older Svetlana "winged C" that's about halfway through their life (or more). I concur with Panicos comment about their sound. It was the offer of cryogenically treated SED's and Watfords description that made me buy a new quad of these.
A very important issue Aril.Reliability is something all new production manufacturers must pay attention at.I can't remember having any serious problems/losses with NOS tubes so far.It is true however that new production tubes are improving,soundwise too.A set of 2008 Sovtek EL84's, sounds much better than a 2004 set.Not day and night,but better in transparency,smoothness and harmonics(the important areas where the new tubes usually suffer).
Dear reader of this thread/postings.
- Please read through the earlier postings in this thread and the tests/comments on Audiogon, Watford Valves and the tubestore. There are links in the postings. This will give you a fair understanding of the sound you can expect from the tubes mentioned here. This will help you in selecting your choice of tube for your gear based on preference and synergy.
(fanfare playing)
The best current production - or available NOS EL34 type tubes!:
A four way shared 1st place goes to these:
*Gold Lion Genalex KT77 reissue
*Siemens NOS EL34
*SED "winged C" EL34
*EH-6CA7
Second place:
*Shuguang/Valve Art EL34
The first place is shared by so many tubes, because it is so much up to you and your preference. All the tubes in 1st place will give a balanced sound with very detailed and good imaging. Please choose the ones that you imagine will suit your needs/system best! Trusting our fellow DIY'ers comments, they should all be VERY good and possibly quite close, or even equal to our NOS reference tubes from "the golden age of tubes"!
- If you are rich and patient you can buy these:
Our reference NOS tubes are:
NOS Mullard XF2, NOS M.O. Valve Genalex Gold Lion KT77 and the NOS Sylvania 6CA7's.
- The question is if you would be more satisfied soundvise ...
Hope the DIY Audio forum may have helped you, as it has me, through this thread of postings!
Best Regards
Aril
- Please read through the earlier postings in this thread and the tests/comments on Audiogon, Watford Valves and the tubestore. There are links in the postings. This will give you a fair understanding of the sound you can expect from the tubes mentioned here. This will help you in selecting your choice of tube for your gear based on preference and synergy.
(fanfare playing)The best current production - or available NOS EL34 type tubes!:
A four way shared 1st place goes to these:
*Gold Lion Genalex KT77 reissue
*Siemens NOS EL34
*SED "winged C" EL34
*EH-6CA7
Second place:
*Shuguang/Valve Art EL34
The first place is shared by so many tubes, because it is so much up to you and your preference. All the tubes in 1st place will give a balanced sound with very detailed and good imaging. Please choose the ones that you imagine will suit your needs/system best! Trusting our fellow DIY'ers comments, they should all be VERY good and possibly quite close, or even equal to our NOS reference tubes from "the golden age of tubes"!
- If you are rich and patient you can buy these:
Our reference NOS tubes are:
NOS Mullard XF2, NOS M.O. Valve Genalex Gold Lion KT77 and the NOS Sylvania 6CA7's.
- The question is if you would be more satisfied soundvise ...
Hope the DIY Audio forum may have helped you, as it has me, through this thread of postings!
Best Regards
Aril
here's a wrench.....
There is a new player in town....
Shuguang 6CA7-Z
(this is NOT the generic Shuguang offering)
http://grantfidelity.com/site/Shuguang_Treasure_6CA7-Z
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0509/shuguang_treasure_series_6CA7_kt88.htm
and an unbiased review / test of the major players vs. the "Z"
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=64336.0
JD
There is a new player in town....
Shuguang 6CA7-Z
(this is NOT the generic Shuguang offering)
http://grantfidelity.com/site/Shuguang_Treasure_6CA7-Z
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0509/shuguang_treasure_series_6CA7_kt88.htm
and an unbiased review / test of the major players vs. the "Z"
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=64336.0
JD
Very interresting.It seems however that quality has its price...afterall
Still prefer to take reviewers comments as a guide only.All of them must have said words like "best,amazing,real,etc..." more than a million times.Their comments and tastes have been many times misleaded readers.On the other hand,let us hope that this is the begining of a new era in new production tubes.
Still prefer to take reviewers comments as a guide only.All of them must have said words like "best,amazing,real,etc..." more than a million times.Their comments and tastes have been many times misleaded readers.On the other hand,let us hope that this is the begining of a new era in new production tubes.
Great, Jeffrey Davison!
Shuguang is rising the stakes here ...
The price is way too rich though! I think I would have preferred to "hunt down" a set of good NOS tubes instead! Gives greater pleasure in owning them too ... Having "the real classics" ... In stead of buying a set of Shuguang Z's "to save my NOS tubes" I would have bought several sets of the tubes at 1st place in the recommnded list in this thread, or another set of some NOS. I really hope New Sensor/EH/Sovtek og SED "winged C" - picks up this challenge and gives them a real beating price-wise!! It should be possible (remember the NOS Mullards; they were produced as "cheap alternatives" to other power-tubes. We know the rest of that story!). The "enjoy the music" review was more like a food/beverage menu for me. It was too much subjectiveness. Wonder how the Shuguang Z's would stand up to the tubes in this threads suggested 1st. place, not to mention the old NOS references ... I guess feel a lack of a true reference in the test ...
Shuguang is rising the stakes here ...
The price is way too rich though! I think I would have preferred to "hunt down" a set of good NOS tubes instead! Gives greater pleasure in owning them too ... Having "the real classics" ... In stead of buying a set of Shuguang Z's "to save my NOS tubes" I would have bought several sets of the tubes at 1st place in the recommnded list in this thread, or another set of some NOS. I really hope New Sensor/EH/Sovtek og SED "winged C" - picks up this challenge and gives them a real beating price-wise!! It should be possible (remember the NOS Mullards; they were produced as "cheap alternatives" to other power-tubes. We know the rest of that story!). The "enjoy the music" review was more like a food/beverage menu for me. It was too much subjectiveness. Wonder how the Shuguang Z's would stand up to the tubes in this threads suggested 1st. place, not to mention the old NOS references ... I guess feel a lack of a true reference in the test ...
It is the right way to have a personal reference in order to judge any newcomer or any other tubes.That personal reference will vary from person to person taste and system(at least).There are no good units IMO,only well set-up systems.Price was not and will never be the only criterion for good sound.Same I believe with tubes.If Shuguang sell a tube like this at that price,imagine other manufacturers.No offence for Shuguang,but their tubes were always more competitively priced compared to Russian and others.In the end,if someone is 100% happy with his tubes in his system,then a few extra sets of the same is the ligical move as Aril suggests.This is the only way to have a consistently good sound for your taste.Tubes are back for good,and as always there are those who believe that the most expensive is the best.Manufacturers must serve all customersDuring my search for the "best"EL84 for me,all my friends have helped by letting me try their tubes and compare them with my samples.That saved me a lot of money on experiments,and the worry to "get rid"of the tubes I wouldn't like.
During my search for the "best"EL84 for me,all my friends have helped by letting me try their tubes and compare them with my samples.That saved me a lot of money on experiments,and the worry to "get rid"of the tubes I wouldn't like.
Hi!
Yes Panicos, everyone has their subjective taste and a right to tell about it, but I feel that a test in "enjoy the music" should try to be more objective (no such thing as totally objective) for the sake of the consumer. I also think it should have been more critical - at least as to the high price. What is it that defend such a price tag? Because of this, it should have been tested against the very best of EL34/6CA7 (or KT88's as the test mostly was about) - and there should certainly have been an acknowledged "reference NOS tube" amongst these contenders.
- We, the consumers, should be very happy to see such a developement in new tubes, - but we should definetely not just sing our praise to any attempt no matter the price tag, just as long as it seems to be a "high end" attempt.
We should not be too gullible and we should demand higher quality for every extra buck we have to pay!!!
To know if it really is of higher quality, any test of tubes should have a reference set of tubes to be tested against.
My suggestion to this, is as you know, a set of the most acclaimed NOS tubes, and a couple of different sets of the better current production. A good test need good reference!
In the Shuguang Z test the reference was the EH EL34, wich by many (please read comments by users on Audiogon, test on Watford and tubestore) is not as good as the EH6CA7 and certainly not close to the ones in this threads 1st. place ...
All the tubes in this threads 1st. place have been up against NOS reference tubes too, and found to be "almost as good, - or just as good - or even a bit better" than our reference NOS tubes (please read this whole thread with links).
- So, I feel that while the Shuguang Z's probably (the should be) are of the better ones today, this still haven't been proved!
This means that they can not be placed on the list in this thread. If one should attempt, the Z's would (should) be better than the regular Shuguang/Valve Art EL34's ...
Thank's for the tip on the Shuguang Z's though
They're definetly tubes to follow up on. It will be exiting to see how good they really are ... They're up against some very stiff competition - and their price tag only makes it more difficult to make it against the competitors!
Best Regards
Aril
Yes Panicos, everyone has their subjective taste and a right to tell about it, but I feel that a test in "enjoy the music" should try to be more objective (no such thing as totally objective) for the sake of the consumer. I also think it should have been more critical - at least as to the high price. What is it that defend such a price tag? Because of this, it should have been tested against the very best of EL34/6CA7 (or KT88's as the test mostly was about) - and there should certainly have been an acknowledged "reference NOS tube" amongst these contenders.
- We, the consumers, should be very happy to see such a developement in new tubes, - but we should definetely not just sing our praise to any attempt no matter the price tag, just as long as it seems to be a "high end" attempt.
We should not be too gullible and we should demand higher quality for every extra buck we have to pay!!!
To know if it really is of higher quality, any test of tubes should have a reference set of tubes to be tested against.
My suggestion to this, is as you know, a set of the most acclaimed NOS tubes, and a couple of different sets of the better current production. A good test need good reference!
In the Shuguang Z test the reference was the EH EL34, wich by many (please read comments by users on Audiogon, test on Watford and tubestore) is not as good as the EH6CA7 and certainly not close to the ones in this threads 1st. place ...
All the tubes in this threads 1st. place have been up against NOS reference tubes too, and found to be "almost as good, - or just as good - or even a bit better" than our reference NOS tubes (please read this whole thread with links).
- So, I feel that while the Shuguang Z's probably (the should be) are of the better ones today, this still haven't been proved!
This means that they can not be placed on the list in this thread. If one should attempt, the Z's would (should) be better than the regular Shuguang/Valve Art EL34's ...
Thank's for the tip on the Shuguang Z's though
They're definetly tubes to follow up on. It will be exiting to see how good they really are ... They're up against some very stiff competition - and their price tag only makes it more difficult to make it against the competitors!
Best Regards
Aril
Here's another vote for the EH 6CA7s.
Had a quad for several years in an Ella and they acquitted themselves well against Mullards, on one occasion, with a few miles on them.
Just put a matched pair in my Simple and that magic mid-range really came through even before break-in.
Pairs everywhere for $38; not much risk.
Had a quad for several years in an Ella and they acquitted themselves well against Mullards, on one occasion, with a few miles on them.
Just put a matched pair in my Simple and that magic mid-range really came through even before break-in.
Pairs everywhere for $38; not much risk.
When you compare these tubes, you must concider that 6CA7's, 5881's and KT77's (Kinkless Tetrode77) are beam tetrodes with similar specifications, but not same as EL34's that are true pentodes. The label EL34/6CA7 is therefore a technical false statement. The difference is obvious just in comparing the transfer curves in the data sheets. Of course they will sound different in different amplifier configurations.
When 5881 (a tetrode with lower specs than 6CA7) is also named in this thread, all 6L6 family tubes from 807 and forward should also be compared.
But the thing is that an amplifier is designed to have pentodes or tetrodes by the designer.
The mainly sounding and measuring difference is that the tetrodes have a much sharper clipping and more high order odd harmonics, than the soft clipping EL34 pentodes.
The percentage of the optimum screen-taps for ultralinear operation also differs. Normally 40-43% for tetrodes and 25 - 30% for pentodes.
We are back to comparing the taste of apples and pears.....
JohanB
When 5881 (a tetrode with lower specs than 6CA7) is also named in this thread, all 6L6 family tubes from 807 and forward should also be compared.
But the thing is that an amplifier is designed to have pentodes or tetrodes by the designer.
The mainly sounding and measuring difference is that the tetrodes have a much sharper clipping and more high order odd harmonics, than the soft clipping EL34 pentodes.
The percentage of the optimum screen-taps for ultralinear operation also differs. Normally 40-43% for tetrodes and 25 - 30% for pentodes.
We are back to comparing the taste of apples and pears.....
JohanB
Hi, JohanB.
You are right in pointing out that the 5881 is an equivalent to 6L6 and that the KT77 and 6CA7 are beam tetrodes. The 5881 was mentioned, but never accepted in this thread as an equivalent to EL34, and thus not recommended! The 6CA7's are mentioned as an alternative EL34 - as it is right to say, since this was the "name" (falsly) of EL34's in the US. The KT77 has also been marketed as a EL34 substitute. These are tetrodes, and what you say about them are true. The resulting diffrence in sound character from this, has been mentioned in the thread earlier! I think the readers have been made well aware of this - and should know of the KT77 and 6CA7's different characteristics. Many feel that these do give an often very welcome and sought after character in an EL34 amplifier though I guess BillEpstein has found this to be true
So JohanB, - the thread has been very truthful about the matters you point at. Thank you for clarifying!
You are right in pointing out that the 5881 is an equivalent to 6L6 and that the KT77 and 6CA7 are beam tetrodes. The 5881 was mentioned, but never accepted in this thread as an equivalent to EL34, and thus not recommended! The 6CA7's are mentioned as an alternative EL34 - as it is right to say, since this was the "name" (falsly) of EL34's in the US. The KT77 has also been marketed as a EL34 substitute. These are tetrodes, and what you say about them are true. The resulting diffrence in sound character from this, has been mentioned in the thread earlier! I think the readers have been made well aware of this - and should know of the KT77 and 6CA7's different characteristics. Many feel that these do give an often very welcome and sought after character in an EL34 amplifier though
I guess BillEpstein has found this to be true So JohanB, - the thread has been very truthful about the matters you point at. Thank you for clarifying!
Not nearly all 6CA7 manufactured and sold in the United States were beam power tetrodes.
In fact Tungsol, Sylvania and RCA all made real pentode 6CA7s here in the USA. Check the data sheets, and incidentally the Tungsol data is on Frank's. (The 1960s era Sylvania and RCA data sheets in my books are not.)
There was a fat bottle version which was a beam power tetrode manufactured by GE, other OEMs may have manufactured or sold this type as well. I think these types were manufactured in the decade or so prior to cessation of manufacture by the major tube makers.
In fact Tungsol, Sylvania and RCA all made real pentode 6CA7s here in the USA. Check the data sheets, and incidentally the Tungsol data is on Frank's. (The 1960s era Sylvania and RCA data sheets in my books are not.)
There was a fat bottle version which was a beam power tetrode manufactured by GE, other OEMs may have manufactured or sold this type as well. I think these types were manufactured in the decade or so prior to cessation of manufacture by the major tube makers.
Hi Kevinkr, - and thank you for your contribution!
The EH-6CA7EH is a close copy of the NOS Sylvania fat bottle 6CA7 and the Philips 6CA7 and they were made as a pentodes (true EL34 if you will). It does, however, show a bit different characteristics for plate voltage, distortion and breakup and will be a bit different soundwise too than the generic EL34 (please read the Watford and tubestore tests) but these are the most rugged EL34's ever made. I must admit that I was a bit in doubt if this was a beam tetrode or a pentode, but Kevinkr last posting made me check it up, - and I can confirm his statement. I didn't think so much about this before JohanB's posting. I guess I was (as many probably are) content with finding the best sounding tubes for EL34 amplifiers.
However the reissue Gold Lion Genalex KT77 is a beam tetrode, made to duplicate the original NOS Genalex valves!
As Tubeworld puts it: "The KT77 is designed primarily for use under ultra-linear conditions (43% taps, Class AB1 push-pull)
and this connection is recommended. Similiar performance can be obtained in the tetrode connected mode,
but the output impednace (zout) will be higher ... "
The EH-6CA7EH is a close copy of the NOS Sylvania fat bottle 6CA7 and the Philips 6CA7 and they were made as a pentodes (true EL34 if you will). It does, however, show a bit different characteristics for plate voltage, distortion and breakup and will be a bit different soundwise too than the generic EL34 (please read the Watford and tubestore tests) but these are the most rugged EL34's ever made. I must admit that I was a bit in doubt if this was a beam tetrode or a pentode, but Kevinkr last posting made me check it up, - and I can confirm his statement. I didn't think so much about this before JohanB's posting. I guess I was (as many probably are) content with finding the best sounding tubes for EL34 amplifiers.
However the reissue Gold Lion Genalex KT77 is a beam tetrode, made to duplicate the original NOS Genalex valves!
As Tubeworld puts it: "The KT77 is designed primarily for use under ultra-linear conditions (43% taps, Class AB1 push-pull)
and this connection is recommended. Similiar performance can be obtained in the tetrode connected mode,
but the output impednace (zout) will be higher ... "
A big thumbs up to you guys for making me aware of tetrodes and Googling the difference between them and pentodes.
Seems like these sidetrips are more educational than direct study. Some day, when I grow up (I'm 62 next month), I might know a little more about tube electronics than just 'place tab "A" in slot "B" '
Seems like these sidetrips are more educational than direct study. Some day, when I grow up (I'm 62 next month), I might know a little more about tube electronics than just 'place tab "A" in slot "B" '
Well ... I'm sorry BillEpstein, but in case you wondered this whole thread is about what EL34 is the best of todays offering when it comes to sound. You contributed with your findings on the EH6CA7's and I think that is a great contribution to the people looking for what EL34 to buy!
When people start talking about tetrodes and pentodes, I see a responsibility to the ones reading this thread to "get it straight".
In todays world this - fortunately - is easy to check up on! So I did this for the benefit of the readers of this thread. It should'nt be necessary for the ones reading this thread "just" to find their choice of EL34, to be more confused after reading this. They should feel at ease with choosing the tubes suggested in the 1st place of our ranking list! - And they can be too ... (isn't that nice?).
This thread is supposed to be about sound quality and todays EL34 tubes, not a "technical" thread about tetrodes and pentodes, specially when this has little bearing on what this thread is about!
What was it that made you so upset, BillEpstein?
(I'm 44 by the way ... loudspeakers is my force ... and I am mostly into audio for the music)
This is a study into what sound to expect with what choice of tube - and not pay too much for it. The "educational" is to avoid any confusion and is the easy part (all research on this is done half a century ago, so 'google it', as you say, is actually a great way to go)
When people start talking about tetrodes and pentodes, I see a responsibility to the ones reading this thread to "get it straight".
In todays world this - fortunately - is easy to check up on! So I did this for the benefit of the readers of this thread. It should'nt be necessary for the ones reading this thread "just" to find their choice of EL34, to be more confused after reading this. They should feel at ease with choosing the tubes suggested in the 1st place of our ranking list! - And they can be too ... (isn't that nice?).
This thread is supposed to be about sound quality and todays EL34 tubes, not a "technical" thread about tetrodes and pentodes, specially when this has little bearing on what this thread is about!
What was it that made you so upset, BillEpstein?
(I'm 44 by the way ... loudspeakers is my force ... and I am mostly into audio for the music)
This is a study into what sound to expect with what choice of tube - and not pay too much for it. The "educational" is to avoid any confusion and is the easy part (all research on this is done half a century ago, so 'google it', as you say, is actually a great way to go)
YIKES!
Not upset at all. Did my post seem sarcastic? I thoroughly enjoyed finding out about tetrodes vs. pentodes. Apparently I wasn't clear about the value of my sidetrip to Google and if so, my apologies.
It's these sidetrips to find out what the more knowledgeable of you discuss that I really enjoy about much of the discourse here. I first held a resistor in one hand and a soldering pencil in the other just 6 years ago and I make a discovery almost every day.
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