The truth can be a very annoying thing. For example, the truth is that your measurements have been disputed. It is likely also true those measurements are in error. You need to decide what to do about that. Head in the sand is one option, I give you that.
Many years ago one of my first jobs was working for a salvage company that travelled the uk removing the miles of copper cables from hundreds of village and small town railway stations/lines that were no longer in use.
We used to burn the coating off and sell the copper for scrap value, how times have changed if only i knew then what i do now , 3/4 inch dia. multistrand in a heavy duty wrap , think of a fancy name ,a price tag of £500 per metre and laugh all the way to the bank 🙂
I keep telling myself to ignore cable threads and resist posting ..... but i just can't.........
We used to burn the coating off and sell the copper for scrap value, how times have changed if only i knew then what i do now , 3/4 inch dia. multistrand in a heavy duty wrap , think of a fancy name ,a price tag of £500 per metre and laugh all the way to the bank 🙂
I keep telling myself to ignore cable threads and resist posting ..... but i just can't.........
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There are a few phrases for that "scientific experimentation ", "peer review", "due diligence", "testing", "poking holes in a theory", "audit"
Obviously a conspiracy between the orientation of the lights on the ceiling and the impossible shadows they throw on the surface of the moon set.
Needs more Sasquatch.
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What constitutes truth? We were here before, when ever known science and engineering have been accounted for the parties usually back off when they realize they can't peek.
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I have always been amazed how frequently the audiophile community confuses hypotheses with proven facts. Of course, it is well proven that a better story (hypothesis) will sell more product than facts.
I used to sell the most accurate audio analyzers ever made. No audio analyzer tells you how a product sounds. They can only give you insight as to why a product sounds the way it does. However, most analyzers only test for responses to steady state excitations. I have captured many waveforms that clearly exhibit transient response problems that are not covered by traditional measurements (including TIM/DIM). I am skeptical (yet open) to the possibility that traditional cable measurements may not be sufficient to differentiate audible cable differences.
I was once asked to measure a set of $20K XLR cables that were about 4' long. The first thing I noticed was clipping in the cable at 0.6 volts. There were diodes in these cables!!! Then I used my video demagnetizer to test the quality of the twist (a well twisted cable will exhibit common mode noise, not differential mode noise). The cable snapped to the demagnetizer because it had a steel shield!!! I'm not sure how many people purchased these cables but I am sure they got a good story to go with them. And, I have a strong suspicion that these cables sounded different.
My buddy collects pre-heterodyne (pre-1927) radios. He had a manual for a 1923 model that described the problem of fading stations. The manufacturer admitted that they don't understand the problem but one could try playing with the antenna or tuner or just wait. I loved it! They didn't offer a hypothesis and present it as a fact. I wish manufacturers would still do that.
I used to sell the most accurate audio analyzers ever made. No audio analyzer tells you how a product sounds. They can only give you insight as to why a product sounds the way it does. However, most analyzers only test for responses to steady state excitations. I have captured many waveforms that clearly exhibit transient response problems that are not covered by traditional measurements (including TIM/DIM). I am skeptical (yet open) to the possibility that traditional cable measurements may not be sufficient to differentiate audible cable differences.
I was once asked to measure a set of $20K XLR cables that were about 4' long. The first thing I noticed was clipping in the cable at 0.6 volts. There were diodes in these cables!!! Then I used my video demagnetizer to test the quality of the twist (a well twisted cable will exhibit common mode noise, not differential mode noise). The cable snapped to the demagnetizer because it had a steel shield!!! I'm not sure how many people purchased these cables but I am sure they got a good story to go with them. And, I have a strong suspicion that these cables sounded different.
My buddy collects pre-heterodyne (pre-1927) radios. He had a manual for a 1923 model that described the problem of fading stations. The manufacturer admitted that they don't understand the problem but one could try playing with the antenna or tuner or just wait. I loved it! They didn't offer a hypothesis and present it as a fact. I wish manufacturers would still do that.
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Genuinely audible cable differences can arise from:
- Excess capacitance encouraging HF instability and/or HF rolloff
- Excess loop area (or poor or nonexistent shielding) encouraging RF pickup
- Excess resistance causing frequency response bumpiness (for speaker cable)
- Peculiar design introducing other special problems
In some cases these problems are made worse by poor design of 'high end' or DIY audio equipment, so 'cable sensitivity' is a symptom of poor design.
Tests have shown that many claimed cable differences disappear when peeking is not allowed.
Audio cables are short. Therefore audio cables are electrically simple. Therefore they cannot have the effects attributed to them by cable believers.
- Excess capacitance encouraging HF instability and/or HF rolloff
- Excess loop area (or poor or nonexistent shielding) encouraging RF pickup
- Excess resistance causing frequency response bumpiness (for speaker cable)
- Peculiar design introducing other special problems
In some cases these problems are made worse by poor design of 'high end' or DIY audio equipment, so 'cable sensitivity' is a symptom of poor design.
Tests have shown that many claimed cable differences disappear when peeking is not allowed.
Audio cables are short. Therefore audio cables are electrically simple. Therefore they cannot have the effects attributed to them by cable believers.
Hi,
Ok here we go, The very thing I hate ! Let the onslaught begin,Anyways since you guys seems to know it all and are making me look like..... in any which case,But won't sit and take..........
It's a matter of choice sure isn't it ? For me and others who have heard the cable,The choice was unanimous !
And yes I do hear the difference between a X brand to mine or Y brand to mine,Should I not say it just cause................. ???
Thanks a lot for showing that you are the most knowledgeable person and me a mere idiot here ! Kudos to your googling skills too for getting such a colourful result from the text that I posted which couldn't even remotely mean anything close to....
I never ever said that,If you start to assume things then Am not responsible, However to make things clear, I and countless others have heard it and have posted their views online in Indian forums, Will that answer suffice ??
Yes Correct,Not measurable with the equipment that I have,I have no problems in accepting this, Also yes perhaps the meter is broken,I Am in a process of getting these tested in a proper place ( it's not easy for that to happen where Am from).
Answered above. If you would be kind enough to let me know the proper methodology to measure will be very grateful !
Another gem of a advice, "Put my head in the sand" !! Why stop at that ?
I have no shame in posting what I know and if there's something wrong in what I have posted I will gladly and without a doubt accept it ! Am here to learn and share what I have learnt !
Also just cause my measurements are perhaps wrong (faulty equipment or otherwise), Is that the end of it all ?? I have heard it and so have others as mentioned,All of the people who have heard have had nothing but positive to say about them,So isn't that all we at the end of the day want ? that whatever DIY is done is appealing to more number of people and most if not all are agreeing that what you've done is good ?
Or is it just that,Catch a mistake and just belittle a person to the extent that he............
Am amazed and baffled that you guys go to this extent to put a fellow down, Instead of trying to help and correct,Just pounce on a guy and smash his head off,Great going !
I do not think I wish to continue any further with this,Anyone has any real advice or such to post please do and I shall respond, else feel to free "beat the dead horse" to whatever extent you guys want and to the fullest satisfaction of your Ego's !
Regards.
Ok here we go, The very thing I hate ! Let the onslaught begin,Anyways since you guys seems to know it all and are making me look like..... in any which case,But won't sit and take..........
It's a matter of choice sure isn't it ? For me and others who have heard the cable,The choice was unanimous !
And yes I do hear the difference between a X brand to mine or Y brand to mine,Should I not say it just cause................. ???
Thanks a lot for showing that you are the most knowledgeable person and me a mere idiot here ! Kudos to your googling skills too for getting such a colourful result from the text that I posted which couldn't even remotely mean anything close to....
I never ever said that,If you start to assume things then Am not responsible, However to make things clear, I and countless others have heard it and have posted their views online in Indian forums, Will that answer suffice ??
Yes Correct,Not measurable with the equipment that I have,I have no problems in accepting this, Also yes perhaps the meter is broken,I Am in a process of getting these tested in a proper place ( it's not easy for that to happen where Am from).
Answered above. If you would be kind enough to let me know the proper methodology to measure will be very grateful !
Another gem of a advice, "Put my head in the sand" !! Why stop at that ?
I have no shame in posting what I know and if there's something wrong in what I have posted I will gladly and without a doubt accept it ! Am here to learn and share what I have learnt !
Also just cause my measurements are perhaps wrong (faulty equipment or otherwise), Is that the end of it all ?? I have heard it and so have others as mentioned,All of the people who have heard have had nothing but positive to say about them,So isn't that all we at the end of the day want ? that whatever DIY is done is appealing to more number of people and most if not all are agreeing that what you've done is good ?
Or is it just that,Catch a mistake and just belittle a person to the extent that he............
Am amazed and baffled that you guys go to this extent to put a fellow down, Instead of trying to help and correct,Just pounce on a guy and smash his head off,Great going !
I do not think I wish to continue any further with this,Anyone has any real advice or such to post please do and I shall respond, else feel to free "beat the dead horse" to whatever extent you guys want and to the fullest satisfaction of your Ego's !
Regards.
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to paraphrase American poet Paul Simon
"(a) man believes what he wants to believe, and disregards the rest"
There must be 50ways to lose your sanity, and seeing so many of these threads devolve to the same place is certainly among them
"(a) man believes what he wants to believe, and disregards the rest"
There must be 50ways to lose your sanity, and seeing so many of these threads devolve to the same place is certainly among them
SoundsGreat, do not fret. There is some learning to be had here. Some of the comments you quoted above are a direct reflection of your word choices in your posts.
You stated that you tested your products "exclusively." I doubt that this is the word you really wanted. Exclusively implies that you only tested your products or that you were the only person that tested your products. Either way, it doesn't help you build a case for your testing. Perhaps you meant to say "exhaustively" or some other word.
The other "issue" was publishing data that exhibited clear problems (incorrect nomenclature for the units aside). The data seems to indicate a problem with either your instrumentation or test method but you hadn't recognized that yourself. This is a common problem within the audiophile community. There is frequent misuse of techno-jargon in non-sensical ways that appears in marketing and especially in showroom conversations. This stuff causes the neck hair of technical people stand up. I suspect your presentation of seemingly bad data was like scratching a sore to some other members.
In the end, what counts is if you like your results. You seem to and that is all that really counts. After all music enjoyment is subjective, like artwork.
You stated that you tested your products "exclusively." I doubt that this is the word you really wanted. Exclusively implies that you only tested your products or that you were the only person that tested your products. Either way, it doesn't help you build a case for your testing. Perhaps you meant to say "exhaustively" or some other word.
The other "issue" was publishing data that exhibited clear problems (incorrect nomenclature for the units aside). The data seems to indicate a problem with either your instrumentation or test method but you hadn't recognized that yourself. This is a common problem within the audiophile community. There is frequent misuse of techno-jargon in non-sensical ways that appears in marketing and especially in showroom conversations. This stuff causes the neck hair of technical people stand up. I suspect your presentation of seemingly bad data was like scratching a sore to some other members.
In the end, what counts is if you like your results. You seem to and that is all that really counts. After all music enjoyment is subjective, like artwork.
Oh dear .... as Mooly stated at the start of this thread...... i sense an imminent lockdown on the horizon 🙂
You seem to have been there before, there are forums where folks engineer on hunches and pass final judgement with uncontrolled listening you might get more out of an interconnect thread there.
Let's not forget, this industry wouldn't be here without Lee DeForest and he never understood how his Audion tube (triode) actually worked.
Silence like a cancer grows
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I believe that your statements on cables are not being received very kindly because you invoke "hearing" X is better than Y instead of showing data that supports your perception.
Haha, no that is what a salesman wants! Hearing is exactly that, perception, and it must be processed by the brain. The brain is NOT an objective measurement tool because it is easily influenced one way or another by a wide variety of other stimuli that it is receiving. This effect is surely known to you. So do not take offense. You are just finding out that people on this forum do not accept unsubstantiated claims, which is exactly what "hearing" amounts to. This is even the case no matter how many people you claim "hear" the same thing. It's all just perception and the mind can easily trick you.
It's fine and good that you like the stuff you made. In this forum, in order to have your claim that X is better than Y you must illustrate that with some kind of unbiased measurement or you can expect some serious pushback.
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These are important points. Look at it from our (receiving) side. Bad use of terms, very unrealistic measurements, closed mind attitude. Now we have to answer the question: do we have confidence that the other stuff this poster says about 'sound' of his cables is trustworthy? Asking the question is answering it.
This is NOT a personal attack on the poster. We don't know him, never met him, no idea what or whom he is. Precisely because of that, we can only judge his trustworthyness (of his audio statements) by what he states and how.
Edit: fully agree with Charlie's post above.
Jan
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SoundsGreat,
Perhaps a personal example describing myself is more appropriate to help you understand my reaction to your post(s):
I am a degreed engineer with a PE license in multiple states. I am well schooled (and have extensive field experience) in power systems and audio systems. In college, for the heck of it I took a course in Microwave Solid State Circuit Design. It went over the commonly known terms like standing wave ratio, characteristic impedance, Smith charts, etc. I miraculously got an A, which I suppose says something about the quality of the course, because at the end of the day I really understood very little about microwaves/RF at all. Even had the opportunity to work on two 10 kW radio transmitters, one tube the other PWM IGBT. I really am disappointed to be an EE and yet be so ignorant of high frequency behavior; I wish I knew more.
Today, decades later I am able to toss out some general terms regarding RF, and as an EE one has a very basic/b] understanding of high frequency behavior. But I fully admit I don't understand superheterodyne radios.
If I was playing with my radio and found some 'magical' method of capturing a foreign language radio station, I would not go on a radio forum and begin making my claims, knowing full well I have neither the expertise nor the test equipment to validate my claims. I would ask questions and take the advice of those who clearly have a greater understanding than me. This comes with a little bit of trust; you don't always know who the experts are. But the beauty of an open forum is the tendency for ad-hoc peer review to take place; if an 'expert' says something fishy there will be a barrage of counter-arguments to refute the fishyness. This is a good thing. Since I have some partial understanding and good fundamental theory (high level math, calculus, physics, etc) hopefully I increase in my understanding until I learn WHY I managed to capture that radio station in the first place. Then, maybe get an opportunity to repeat that magic.
Perhaps the tone is negative, as is a common result in electronic communications where parties do not have to face each other in person. We need to get past the attitudes and look at ourselves- have I brought this upon myself? You are entitled to your beliefs regarding cables and their affect on your system. You are not entitled to the truth unless it is true. Thus far you have not provided any truth, and it is the truth that people on this forum try (maybe poorly or arrogantly) to defend.
The truth about your measurements was correctly and justifiably questioned. What a sad world we would live in if we simply took your numbers as 'truth'. I would no longer know how to apply an equation to a circuit and predict its behavior. Hopefully you understand this.
Perhaps a personal example describing myself is more appropriate to help you understand my reaction to your post(s):
I am a degreed engineer with a PE license in multiple states. I am well schooled (and have extensive field experience) in power systems and audio systems. In college, for the heck of it I took a course in Microwave Solid State Circuit Design. It went over the commonly known terms like standing wave ratio, characteristic impedance, Smith charts, etc. I miraculously got an A, which I suppose says something about the quality of the course, because at the end of the day I really understood very little about microwaves/RF at all. Even had the opportunity to work on two 10 kW radio transmitters, one tube the other PWM IGBT. I really am disappointed to be an EE and yet be so ignorant of high frequency behavior; I wish I knew more.
Today, decades later I am able to toss out some general terms regarding RF, and as an EE one has a very basic/b] understanding of high frequency behavior. But I fully admit I don't understand superheterodyne radios.
If I was playing with my radio and found some 'magical' method of capturing a foreign language radio station, I would not go on a radio forum and begin making my claims, knowing full well I have neither the expertise nor the test equipment to validate my claims. I would ask questions and take the advice of those who clearly have a greater understanding than me. This comes with a little bit of trust; you don't always know who the experts are. But the beauty of an open forum is the tendency for ad-hoc peer review to take place; if an 'expert' says something fishy there will be a barrage of counter-arguments to refute the fishyness. This is a good thing. Since I have some partial understanding and good fundamental theory (high level math, calculus, physics, etc) hopefully I increase in my understanding until I learn WHY I managed to capture that radio station in the first place. Then, maybe get an opportunity to repeat that magic.
Perhaps the tone is negative, as is a common result in electronic communications where parties do not have to face each other in person. We need to get past the attitudes and look at ourselves- have I brought this upon myself? You are entitled to your beliefs regarding cables and their affect on your system. You are not entitled to the truth unless it is true. Thus far you have not provided any truth, and it is the truth that people on this forum try (maybe poorly or arrogantly) to defend.
The truth about your measurements was correctly and justifiably questioned. What a sad world we would live in if we simply took your numbers as 'truth'. I would no longer know how to apply an equation to a circuit and predict its behavior. Hopefully you understand this.
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