When and why did simple speakers become complicated?

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#25
Godzilla said:
Personally, when the mids are so recessed you can barely make out the vocals and everything sounds garbled I cringe.
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For straight ahead music listening, sure. But for background music in a public space? There I really prefer the recessed mids because they don't compete with conversation. I used to do a special EQ for ambient music at events where I worked. Kill most of the vocal range. Folks can still talk, but there is a beat and some top sizzle for fun that sets a mood. Worked well in my experience.

Not for anything but background, tho.
 
#26
planet10 said:
What, Linux vrs FreeBSD? Linix has benefited from Apple's implementation of FreeBSD and stuff going back into OpenSource.

dave
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Hi Dave,
You probably know something I don't but I am still waiting for that linux version of iTunes and for the day that iPods function as more than a fancy hard drive in Linux. I'll admit it is recognized as an iPod but it doesn't get much further than that.. 😀

I can't think of anything in my linux distro that is attributable to Apple, even the Apple Lossless and AAC codec I use are considered legally "questionable" or worse along with things like libdvdcss and are not in the opensource repositories. (Came from multiverse "bad" or "Nonfree" repositories - not sure which in any particular case.)

Currently I have windows running in Virtualbox and sometimes iTunes even recognizes that my iPod is connected, more likely though the virtual machine aborts due to a fatal iTunes crash. I haven't quite got it figured out, it's a compatibility issue (probably an Oracle issue) and not anything terribly wrong with iTunes, but somewhat naively I expected it work..

I'm planning on a hifiman next time around as I am much more committed to Linux than I am to the iPod as nice as it is..
 
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#27
Meh...when I can get my UA-1G going in Linux...

I like Mac.

And yes, trying to educate friends about efficiencies, crossover points, the correct enclosures..."But my sub is 1kW!".... lost cases.
Power (and hence, bragging rights) is cheap these days.
 
#30
planet10 said:
It will be bits in the open source parts of OS X. Mostly kernal and low level parts of the OS. And Konquerer (that is where Safai started)

dave
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Interesting, it does answer a few questions since the Ubuntu distro I use runs the Gnome desktop. I've never tried Kubuntu which runs the Konquerer desktop..

I hope to figure out how to get iTunes and my iPod talking reliably, but if not I will just use the media server downstairs which does run WinXP..
 
#31
Godzilla said:
I love a great sounding system! But sometimes I find myself enjoying a not so great system using simple, low performance full range drivers. I think it’s because there’s no reason to judge it or listen critically. If a system sounds musical I can simply enjoy it. But when a system has major flaws it offends. I was shopping in NYC this weekend and heard a lot of horrible sounding speakers in the stores. These were name brands usually mounted on the walls pointing down at the customers. In many cases the bass was boomy or the treble sizzled. They were unlistenable! Personally, when the mids are so recessed you can barely make out the vocals and everything sounds garbled I cringe. This could be why full range drivers sound best, they get the mids ‘right enough’ and we can hear the music without major faults at the extremes.

Does anyone know when manufacturers began insisting a woofer/midrange must cross to a tweeter around 2khz?
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It may not answer ur question but this is a very interesting read on the history of audio reproduction: A Tiny History of High Fidelity, Part 1

Regards /Bo
 
#33
2khz normally is 1 octave lower than the upper limit of a decent woofer which is 4khz and one octave higher than the lower limit of the ordinary dome which is 1khz...

And wise guys consider that one or two octaves for each speaker in each direction from the crossover is a must in order a second order crossover to work properly...

No one bothers to construct a woofer that goes to 3-4 khz and then falls at 6 or 12 db per octave for at least one octave... even if they have such woofer, they don't bother to give it the needed enclosure in order to achieve it...

If a woofer does 4 khz and at 8 it is at -12 db then you can cross it to a tweeter at 6 khz... - pretty good and audiophilic... and with second order crossover and crossover point at 6 khz the tweeter will get electric signal at 0 db at 8 khz... - pretty good...

No one does that! I also ask why! because with brand new suspension and at lower levels the light and fast tweeter will sound decent, but after a few months or a year it dill decay and it always does...

I take seriously only systems with last crossover point above 5-6 khz... And for me it is completely not clear why for instance McIntosh use 2khz crossovers to the tweeters in their monster systems... OK, let it be 50 or so tweeters, but cone displacement and SPL are just that - displacement and SPL - you need it when you force a 100 cm2 membrane area to work at high SPL...
20 - 1 inch dome drivers have about 100 cm2 which is about the cone area of a 5.5 inch midrange... only with that difference that the excursion is 0.1mm - so a 10cm2 displacement... or less...

At 40-50 hz 90 phon is 105 db and at 2 khz 90 phon is 88 db... and 100 phon is 110 db spl at 40-50 hz and 95 db at 2 khz...

What is the needed displacement for 95 db SPL at 2 khz?
And then we'll calculate what is the needed membrane excursion for 95 db SPL at 2 khz with 5cm2 membrane... 😉 And absolutely scientificly we'll see where a tweeter can go and where it can't go...
 
#34
With regards the original post....Actually, I did go and build my HT system around full range simple speakers and DIY amp. OK I have some commercial floorstanders as part of the mix but that was because I wanted a home for them as I prefer DIY for my music stereo. And a DIY subwoofer to round it out. All simple.

I had some friends around. They were waiting a year for me to finish the set up so they could watch The Master & Commander, a blu-ray movie famous for the quality of it's sound track - realistic sea battles with canons etc. They had great expectations so the system had a lot to live up to. Well - first big battle scene was amazing - a huge thumbs up from the audience.

Hope that helps !
 
#35
Bigun said:
With regards the original post....Actually, I did go and build my HT system around full range simple speakers and DIY amp. OK I have some commercial floorstanders as part of the mix but that was because I wanted a home for them as I prefer DIY for my music stereo. And a DIY subwoofer to round it out. All simple.

I had some friends around. They were waiting a year for me to finish the set up so they could watch The Master & Commander, a blu-ray movie famous for the quality of it's sound track - realistic sea battles with canons etc. They had great expectations so the system had a lot to live up to. Well - first big battle scene was amazing - a huge thumbs up from the audience.

Hope that helps !
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refresh my memory on the simple speakers in your FR HT system - or you just fonken with us?
 
#37
It is not just the speakers that fell victim to needless complexity. The music did too. Over produced, over mixed etc. I can hear that on my new build. Neil Young live from Massey Hall is wonderful as are the the Pretenders from the Isle of View. You don't have to ponder why so many old recordings sound so good. It's the muted " and-a-one-and-a-two-and-" that means it was one take layed down just as it was played. Over mixing does to music what complex cross overs can do to speakers. Funny how there is a synergy between bad recordings and complex speakers.
 
#38
The problem with the music is the customer. All this messing around with the music costs money and the only reason to spend that money is to make more money. In other words, the end customer (average bopper?) will vote with their wallets and listen to radio stations that are loud and clear and/or have big whomping bass. So radio stations mix up the music and use electronics to compress it and maximize the volume/signal. Advertisers pay the radio stations to play their adverts - they will similarly process this content for maximum impact.

The average consumer of music gets what they pay for. It's you and me that suffer !!
 
#40
Charles Darwin said:
Volt make a few PA drivers which might fulfil those criteria, specifically the BM251.4.
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Thank you - almost non realistic! Volt Loudspeakers - BM251.4

And at 97 db mean SPL level it is possible to achieve a 87 db sensitivity with 0 db@ 40hz uing an RL in sequence to the driver... Or 92 mean SPL with 0 db@57 hz... again with RL circuit in sequence...

And 28 grams moving mass for a 10 incher with 50mm coil and 3.5 kg magnet...

Sounds like two 18 subs, this as a mid and a compression driver crossed at 5 khz... 😀😀😀

Sorry for that off-topic!

As I think... on the topic... it seems to me that the problem is that simple speakers became simple... We don't see those big and serious crossovers from the past anymore... For nearly 20 years a single cap crossovers and piezo tweeters come to the scene... but now the difference is that the woofers don't fall like the shown Volt anymore...
I had a Sony FH-B77CD before 18-20 years and it sounded good and pretty decent... it has 3-way speakers with no crossover for the woofer and a single capacitor for both the midrange and the piezo tweeter.... But the woofer didn't have any mids...
 
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