No disagreement on the change in music but Complex XOs or even better active XO/DSPs are needed because drivers have flaws that need correcting. For some applications there is a requirement to have drivers that handle the application, HT being one of them.
Speakers are complex because the simple life left people in the 60s
But why do i think, maybe wrongly, that in the 60's the drivers and crossovers were more thought out and maybe more complex?
Why my father's speakers which were a complected to a Russian turntable had full 2nd order crossovers - 4 elements in a crossover and the woofer went to 3-4 khz and then was linearly falling...
How come in the 70's the Russians constructed a 10L Vas 8 inch woofer with long throw and QTS 0.7 and 30hz Fs? And it did 3-4 khz... and they gave it a 2nd order crossover and a good paper cone tweeter...
20 years later 1990 Sony asked dollars, not rubles for a 3 way with single cap and a piezo....
And 20 later in nowadays we get bad sound and an excuses for crossovers... we get Bose and etc... that do not sing...
Lack of needed complexity and engineering is the answer. But the reason is the globalization!
In the 70's who would buy a turntable with amplifier and medium sized speakers? Someone like my father who would like to hear Berlioz's "Requiem", Tchaikovsky, The Beatles, Elvis Presley, Deep Purple...
If what he could afford is not good enough to give him the needed sound, then he would not buy it!
In the seventies people brought with them Bach's "Passacaglia and Fugue" to the electronics store... They wanted a system that is able to reproduce it...
Even the retarded Russian engineers produced woofers able to give the needed response in a 20-30l box... In the west there were more advanced engineers and more wealthy customers... Those engineers gave the customers an even more advanced reproducting devices capable of playing the Passacaglia much better...
Now it is 2010 and 99% of my friends haven't heard of the complete organ works of Bach... But they know Britney Spears and a bunch of DJ's... and they dream of Bose... and I dream of Bizet...
If you were a speaker manufacturer, why would you bother to put an effort to produce a speaker capable of flawless reproduction of Bach, Berlioz or Bizet? Even equipment demanding bands as Guns and Roses have vanished now... No one will soon know that Matt Sorum is kicking the bass drum all the time and the engineers at the studio had to reduce the volume of that...
So it all seems to get more complex, but actually it's getting simpler and unable all the time and that's due to lack of knowledge...
IMHO...
Why my father's speakers which were a complected to a Russian turntable had full 2nd order crossovers - 4 elements in a crossover and the woofer went to 3-4 khz and then was linearly falling...
How come in the 70's the Russians constructed a 10L Vas 8 inch woofer with long throw and QTS 0.7 and 30hz Fs? And it did 3-4 khz... and they gave it a 2nd order crossover and a good paper cone tweeter...
20 years later 1990 Sony asked dollars, not rubles for a 3 way with single cap and a piezo....
And 20 later in nowadays we get bad sound and an excuses for crossovers... we get Bose and etc... that do not sing...
Lack of needed complexity and engineering is the answer. But the reason is the globalization!
In the 70's who would buy a turntable with amplifier and medium sized speakers? Someone like my father who would like to hear Berlioz's "Requiem", Tchaikovsky, The Beatles, Elvis Presley, Deep Purple...
If what he could afford is not good enough to give him the needed sound, then he would not buy it!
In the seventies people brought with them Bach's "Passacaglia and Fugue" to the electronics store... They wanted a system that is able to reproduce it...
Even the retarded Russian engineers produced woofers able to give the needed response in a 20-30l box... In the west there were more advanced engineers and more wealthy customers... Those engineers gave the customers an even more advanced reproducting devices capable of playing the Passacaglia much better...
Now it is 2010 and 99% of my friends haven't heard of the complete organ works of Bach... But they know Britney Spears and a bunch of DJ's... and they dream of Bose... and I dream of Bizet...
If you were a speaker manufacturer, why would you bother to put an effort to produce a speaker capable of flawless reproduction of Bach, Berlioz or Bizet? Even equipment demanding bands as Guns and Roses have vanished now... No one will soon know that Matt Sorum is kicking the bass drum all the time and the engineers at the studio had to reduce the volume of that...
So it all seems to get more complex, but actually it's getting simpler and unable all the time and that's due to lack of knowledge...
IMHO...
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>>> In the 70's who would buy a turntable with amplifier and medium sized speakers? Someone like my father who would like to hear Berlioz's "Requiem", Tchaikovsky, The Beatles, Elvis Presley, Deep Purple...
Thanks for your thoughtful post T101. As i read it i remembered going to the local hi-fi store Tech HiFi and auditioning Ohm, Cerwin Vega and a bunch of other speakers along with different turntables from Technics, Hitachi, Thorens... and partnering cartridges from Ortofon, Pickering, Shure... it was FUN to find what sounded best to us. Engineers seemed to try very hard to make something sound good. These days i'm not so sure.
Zilla
Thanks for your thoughtful post T101. As i read it i remembered going to the local hi-fi store Tech HiFi and auditioning Ohm, Cerwin Vega and a bunch of other speakers along with different turntables from Technics, Hitachi, Thorens... and partnering cartridges from Ortofon, Pickering, Shure... it was FUN to find what sounded best to us. Engineers seemed to try very hard to make something sound good. These days i'm not so sure.
Zilla
U may be forgetting how bad the lower priced stereos were in those days and how inaccessable the really good ones was to most. Marketing ruled in a bad way, people bought what they were being told was good. Audio engineers now how so much more computer power, test equipment and low cost production at there disposal. Plus a fiercer market to deal with.
For the general consumer audio has gotten way better. Its the high end market that went awry with complex x-overs, five way speakers, gordic knot topology amps and truly crappy CD-players. And take a moment to consider all the goodies available if ur into DIY-audio now as opposed to twenty, thirty, forty years ago? Boggles the mind. Not to mention sharing on this forum. Its frekken awesome.
If u ask me. The golden age is now
Regards /Bo
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I agree....there are just better options now then 20+ years ago when I was in school. There was not even a little thing called the internet back them.
The days of the local audio store is definitely gone (Fine by me). The internet offers far greater value than ever could be imagined. We would have never heard or known about products designed by Salk, Mark Seaton, Dr. Geddes, John K. We would have never read about great low cost horn designs from Bill F. I would never have built a little sub system called an IB for $1600 and having its performance being better then $10K of comercial options.
To say Engineers are not trying hard kind of goes against what I read daily in forums. I read about speaker experts going that extra mile for perfection daily on all these forums. I read not only about their designs but how they offer them at little costs to others.
That is truely amazing to me.
The days of the local audio store is definitely gone (Fine by me). The internet offers far greater value than ever could be imagined. We would have never heard or known about products designed by Salk, Mark Seaton, Dr. Geddes, John K. We would have never read about great low cost horn designs from Bill F. I would never have built a little sub system called an IB for $1600 and having its performance being better then $10K of comercial options.
To say Engineers are not trying hard kind of goes against what I read daily in forums. I read about speaker experts going that extra mile for perfection daily on all these forums. I read not only about their designs but how they offer them at little costs to others.
That is truely amazing to me.
U may be forgetting how bad the lower priced stereos were in those days and how inaccessable the really good ones was to most. Marketing ruled in a bad way, people bought what they were being told was good. Audio engineers now have so much more computer power, test equipment and low cost production at there disposal. Plus a fiercer market to deal with.
For the general consumer audio has gotten way better. Its the high end market that went awry with complex x-overs, five way speakers, gordic knot topology amps and truly crappy CD-players. And take a moment to consider all the goodies available if ur into DIY-audio now as opposed to twenty, thirty, forty years ago? Boggles the mind. Not to mention sharing on this forum. Its frekken awesome.
If u ask me. The golden age is now
Regards /Bo
Oops... my bad. If any admins reads this please delete
If u ask me. The golden age is now
I beilive you are correct in that statement.
Ir there was one thing to change for the mass market, I wish there was ethics in marketing. "Digital Ready" speakers? Thats like a football ready bat!
No doubt the internet and globalization have contributed to this current "golden age" of wi-fi access to tera-bytes of data , but OTOH we are also witnessing the demise of "real" audio salons in which to casually or seriously audition.
Funny thing this reliance on second hand "information" - in my own golden days of the audio retailing experience (late 70's to mid 80's), the staff of our local specialty shops would quietly smile to themselves when (generally first time) customers visited armed with what that they'd gleaned from the latest issues of commercial or emerging underground audio press: "I read about XXX in Audio /Stereophile/Absolute Sound/ etc., ... so it must be true"
substitute that with "on the internet" (in any form) and are we really all that much better off when it comes to deciding what we might like without actually hearing it?
one of my internal mantras was then, and remains now
S U S D & L
Funny thing this reliance on second hand "information" - in my own golden days of the audio retailing experience (late 70's to mid 80's), the staff of our local specialty shops would quietly smile to themselves when (generally first time) customers visited armed with what that they'd gleaned from the latest issues of commercial or emerging underground audio press: "I read about XXX in Audio /Stereophile/Absolute Sound/ etc., ... so it must be true"
substitute that with "on the internet" (in any form) and are we really all that much better off when it comes to deciding what we might like without actually hearing it?
one of my internal mantras was then, and remains now
S U S D & L
"Digital Ready" - sometimes just meaningless marketing claptrap and sometimes also a euphemism for a deliberate if gently falling HF response to tame the nasties of early digital..
How do you think, will anyone notice if I make an internet site called T101.com, and if I write in it - Making Terrific Speakers since 1984?
I mean I can open a store in a certain city and sell the "world" famous T101 speakers. I can even say that my speakers were used to power a concert of Madonna...
People will pass by the store and will look it up on the internet and see my speaker's herritage
Internet can be full of crap too. I still remember my first browsing for DIY hi-end speakers on the internet.... I still experience shiver and creep when I remember the $2500 asked price for a pair of locally home made fullranges from parts worth about $30 for both... But there was a whole forum about their superior capacities...
Everyone knows that genius things are simple and many exploit that common knowledge in order to make someone believe that a specific simplicity is actually genius...
Maybe not that simple things became complex, but everything became poorly made.
Internet has value to the consumer when he arrives here, but it is a great delusion to someone unarmed with knowledge and suspicion.
Thank you - almost non realistic! Volt Loudspeakers - BM251.4
And at 97 db mean SPL level it is possible to achieve a 87 db sensitivity with 0 db@ 40hz uing an RL in sequence to the driver... Or 92 mean SPL with 0 db@57 hz... again with RL circuit in sequence...
And 28 grams moving mass for a 10 incher with 50mm coil and 3.5 kg magnet...
Sounds like two 18 subs, this as a mid and a compression driver crossed at 5 khz...
Sorry for that off-topic!
As I think... on the topic... it seems to me that the problem is that simple speakers became simple... We don't see those big and serious crossovers from the past anymore... For nearly 20 years a single cap crossovers and piezo tweeters come to the scene... but now the difference is that the woofers don't fall like the shown Volt anymore...
I had a Sony FH-B77CD before 18-20 years and it sounded good and pretty decent... it has 3-way speakers with no crossover for the woofer and a single capacitor for both the midrange and the piezo tweeter.... But the woofer didn't have any mids...
You could also try Volts RV3153 (8.1kg magnet, 37g moving mass) in a similar set up or even the RVCXD3153 which is the same but with a BMS 4538 compression driver mounted coaxially and use RV4504 or RV4514 (11.5kg & 142g) as woofers.
OK back on topic if anyone still cares (it's been quiet for 3 days)!
Didn't we all live through this argument in the '70's with :quadrophonic" Splitting your speaker budget up for 4 speakers instead of 2 means you listen to cheaper speakers and eventually wonder why it doesn't sound as good as stereo.
Everybody was KungFu Fighting.....
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And it was a little bit
Frightning.... Who wouldn't have such home system - raise your hand!
Why must it be simple in first place? When it can be big, loud, expensive and a little bit frighting...
I already calculated that I'll need about 3000$ only for drivers in order to build a truly dream system with 2 10 inch bass drivers per side each displacing 840 cm3 per cycle, a 10 inch mid drive and a BMS coaxial compression driver...
Why not go big, expensive and complicated? How much did every one of you spent over equipment and matedials over the last 10 years? No! Over the last 5 years?
I bet for most it's over 3000$ and even over 5-6000$...I'm really considering to build something so expensive and good that will heal me from my DIY suffering for a long time
Something like: Push the button and you're in the concert hall...
Something I've seen older people do: Do pleasure to yourself by spending lots of money and then stop bothering you mind on the matter and just USE it...
How do you think, will it help?
Are those the Quested HM 412 or 415?
Personally I think they are quite simple for a 4way. For starters there is no complex passive xover involved!
I thought your approach would cure me but now I just think about building speakers for a different purpose than my main stereo! Right now I'm designing a modular PA system I don't need. If I'm lucky lack of funds will prevent me from actually building it!
Personally I think they are quite simple for a 4way. For starters there is no complex passive xover involved!
I thought your approach would cure me but now I just think about building speakers for a different purpose than my main stereo! Right now I'm designing a modular PA system I don't need. If I'm lucky lack of funds will prevent me from actually building it!
U may be forgetting how bad the lower priced stereos were in those days and how inaccessable the really good ones was to most. Marketing ruled in a bad way, people bought what they were being told was good. Audio engineers now how so much more computer power, test equipment and low cost production at there disposal. Plus a fiercer market to deal with.
For the general consumer audio has gotten way better. Its the high end market that went awry with complex x-overs, five way speakers, gordic knot topology amps and truly crappy CD-players. And take a moment to consider all the goodies available if ur into DIY-audio now as opposed to twenty, thirty, forty years ago? Boggles the mind. Not to mention sharing on this forum. Its frekken awesome.
If u ask me. The golden age is now
Regards /Bo
Hi Bo, Guys,
Regarding speakers, its not the case. I remember buying a pair of little 2 way Wharfedale's, later some Misson and Monitor-Audio speaks in the 1970's - 1980's, they were nice considering their moderate to mid level pricing. There were plenty of other brand systems from these eras that were acoustically good, a few not so nice but that applies to all things at any time.
Today, there's allot of poor quality consumer systems in the high street, many at inflated prices in an effort to create brand kudos and buyer confidence. They might look nice (polished veneers etc.) but acoustically leave much to be desired.
I work in audio factories here in south China churning out 80% of the world's Speaker demand, drivers, system and associated electronics. There's a decline in real quality and value for money. Typically, anyone walking into high street A/V retailer to purchase speakers will spend 90% of their money on the product's brand marketing and distribution; Only 10% on its design, materials, components, assembly and packaging.
I know a popular brand that policy spends only 5% of their products sticker price on design and build, the rest is brand hyping and profit. Many of the old respected brand names have been bought out by Asian manufacturing interests, purely to make money from badge kudos, having no interest in the original products that made the brands reputation.
Sadly, the consumer speaker system market today is a not so good compared to previous times. I'd recommend to anyone shopping around for a branded system from the high street to do the following:
1 - Check out the current ownership of the brand. Is it still in its original location, or has it moved?
2 - Check if other brands look identical or close to the product you're interested to buy. If you see identical or similar looking systems with an alternative badge, the product comes off a consolidated assembly line and is "batch badged". Most of the older industry pros who still work in the business call them "dumb-downs".
3 - Look for brands that still have a proper design input from experienced acoustic designers. Not easy to do but there are a few.
4 - Don't believe most of the the reviews on many of the A/V magazines. These guys rely on advertising revenue so often give glowing reports depending on how much they're being paid by some brands to fill page space.
5 - Seek out smaller boutique makers if possible. Usually these companies put more effort into their product design and component sourcing. They're not cheap, but the extra investment is often worth paying.
6 - Only believe 50% of what the sale person tells you. Trust your own ears, taking lots of time to listen (take your own CD's/source material).
Thanks to my location (Hong Kong) I occasionally feed my passion for vintage and classic audio. From my last trip to Tokyo, I picked up a pair of mint P610 drivers with the same production batch numbers (yummy). I've also got 2 pairs of nice Victor SX 500 Spirit 2 ways. By today's standards the 500's don't look pretty (hated by wife/partner) but the drive units in these speaks are really nice. The box design and build is acoustically far better than many current 2-way high street offerings.
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For DIY/home build choice, yup, I'm with Bo on this one. Things are getting better. I heard some very nice home/hobby built systems in Tokyo recently that sounded far better than similar size current commercial offerings.
Cheers
Mark.
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Hi Bob,
Hope you're doing well. I'll go through your questions in order so...
Came for holiday in 1993. Got off the plane at Kai Tak airport (Hong Kong), looked around, saw 6 million people living life in fast lane. Being an English/Irish country boy who saw more slow moving cattle than fast action people, this first taste of Asia was ubber exciting (and remains so today). Came back for more visits, set up shop in 1998 - 1999, been here ever since.
Already making parts in Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong and South China. I run the final assembly here in south China. Hoping to start making/assembling Alpair 12 Gen 2. (All Japan model) in Osaka next year. Happy to make and assemble elsewhere if the deal's good. USA and the former East Germany look appealing. Need to find the right people.
Currently, tooling for critical components come from Japan, Hong Kong and Taiwan, non-critical in South China. China's CNC and tool making is getting better (they learn fast).
Custom OEM can be small, down to 100 drivers if needed but the design time, tooling/mould, QC work and assembly costs have be carried on a short run of drivers. That makes small driver production runs more expensive.
The other rout is use "off the shelf parts" and/or tweak and re-badge commercial grade drivers, downside is taking design and performance compromises on the chin. There's allot of drivers that follow these methods on the market. Parts vendors still want quantity (1000+ pcs) in the long run. They might help make a small run initially to see if a driver can become popular, but continuity of supply is never guaranteed unless big fat cheques are written some point down the business line.
I'm increasingly being asked to modify my existing drivers for smaller speciality OEM's and boutique brands. They want better quality emitters at production runs between 200 and 1000 drivers per time.
Cheers
Mark.
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Personally, I never cease to be amazed at how poorly many companies blend 2 way speakers. Serious issues with level matching between drivers or sickouts at the crossover point.
There's no excuse for it these days, the maths isn't that difficult, measurement equipment is easy to come by, caps, coils and resistors are easy to source. It has to be just plain laziness or apathy for the quality of the end product.
There's no excuse for it these days, the maths isn't that difficult, measurement equipment is easy to come by, caps, coils and resistors are easy to source. It has to be just plain laziness or apathy for the quality of the end product.
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