A lot depends on the recording: some have a really nice cymbal sound, others not and no amount of great gear or room treatment is going to make them sound good. To my ears, Abbey Road, Kind of Blue and Who's Next do a great job; most Robin Trower CDs do not and make cymbals sound like tins being hit with a baguette.
Whether or not this matters that much sometimes partially depends how the musician uses their kit and how much they play with the song, or use it to punctuate the music. Moon often used cymbals to highlight lyrics - listen to 'Behind Blue Eyes'; Ginger Baker used them to 'talk ' to Eric Clapton during solos.
However, to quote Bad News "you can't beat a good live band".
Geoff
Whether or not this matters that much sometimes partially depends how the musician uses their kit and how much they play with the song, or use it to punctuate the music. Moon often used cymbals to highlight lyrics - listen to 'Behind Blue Eyes'; Ginger Baker used them to 'talk ' to Eric Clapton during solos.
However, to quote Bad News "you can't beat a good live band".
Geoff
There were about 7 years when I heard a lot of live bands. Did every size show, every type of music, etc. Did house sound and mixing for a lot of arena size concerts. It was loud, and I tried to make the sound the best I could. In some cases the audience screaming was a major factor in what people could hear. We can only get the PA up to whatever the legal SPL limits are in the jurisdiction. In a few cases the sound and the show were really special, but most shows were only average most of the time. Sometimes there was one night out of a run of multiple nights where the band or orchestra really was at a peak of performance.
OTOH, many bands try to make sure their recordings represent the best they can do, not what they may do on some random night.
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As a former drummer, I think the reason for this is the way the sound spreads and reflects in a given environment.
Good cymbal has very wide spectrum. Hpf used to isolate the drumkit can impair the perception of the cymbal sound on the recording.
Also the cymbal generates the sound from both sides. You have ceiling and floor reflections at the same time. Of course, those are usually at different distance, thus coming out at different phase. This way you get the idea of a particular "site" sound. I find it understandable that the loudspeaker can't replicate this specific instrument.
Good cymbal has very wide spectrum. Hpf used to isolate the drumkit can impair the perception of the cymbal sound on the recording.
Also the cymbal generates the sound from both sides. You have ceiling and floor reflections at the same time. Of course, those are usually at different distance, thus coming out at different phase. This way you get the idea of a particular "site" sound. I find it understandable that the loudspeaker can't replicate this specific instrument.
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I prefer recordings to all live events.
Microphones are better placed than any listener, the room are treated for sound and it is equalized to sound decent and remove major annoyances.
Live performances: especially rock, musicians are in the wrong place, the equipment is mediocre.
The room is crowded with drunk people shouting and yelling, there are low ceilings , walls, and they blast poor music too loud.
I always find it sounds even better in the streets, or from far or behind the <paid> tickets areas.
If you pay you only get louder disaster, lot of distortion, drunken, etc.
Records all the way!!!
Same with classical music, sounds way better in my living room than in real. And only the best musicians and best conductors make it to recordings.
Microphones are better placed than any listener, the room are treated for sound and it is equalized to sound decent and remove major annoyances.
Live performances: especially rock, musicians are in the wrong place, the equipment is mediocre.
The room is crowded with drunk people shouting and yelling, there are low ceilings , walls, and they blast poor music too loud.
I always find it sounds even better in the streets, or from far or behind the <paid> tickets areas.
If you pay you only get louder disaster, lot of distortion, drunken, etc.
Records all the way!!!
Same with classical music, sounds way better in my living room than in real. And only the best musicians and best conductors make it to recordings.
We have to differentiate between live event with a PA system and a live event without microphones.
Live event with PA is really much worse than recorded music, since PA loudspeakers are horrible, all the annoyances and very high SPL exceeding pain level.
On the other hand, if you are in a very small place, such as a bar for 40 educated people, and mics are only used to the singer so as to align level with drum and other instruments, the sound is really good. You can listen to the acoustic drum, grand piano, acoustic bass, guitar without any mic. Superb quality.
Also, for classical music, in a very good theater, again with educated quiet people, where the orchestra is purely acoustical, no mics at all, the sound is a stunning experience.
Live event with PA is really much worse than recorded music, since PA loudspeakers are horrible, all the annoyances and very high SPL exceeding pain level.
On the other hand, if you are in a very small place, such as a bar for 40 educated people, and mics are only used to the singer so as to align level with drum and other instruments, the sound is really good. You can listen to the acoustic drum, grand piano, acoustic bass, guitar without any mic. Superb quality.
Also, for classical music, in a very good theater, again with educated quiet people, where the orchestra is purely acoustical, no mics at all, the sound is a stunning experience.
for classical it sounds also way better in the house... the acoustics are better because in the classical event the best seats are far and the ventilation system is annoying, the microphones are just there in the air above everything.
Live sounds real and 'better' but in general I do like the recordings a lot. It is hard to explain!!!
Live sounds real and 'better' but in general I do like the recordings a lot. It is hard to explain!!!
I mean a theater without microphones - just pure acoustical.
This is the place I used to go when I lived in Sao Paulo. The entire roof of the theater is made of moving parts to adjust the acoustic for each event (big orchestra, small etc). There are no loudspeakers when classical events are made.
https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sala_São_Paulo
This is what I meant - your city hall having an orchestra without any mics should sound awsome!
The repertoire is really a problem. I used to got to that nice place I mentioned just for the sound experience, since I don't like much classical music.
My prefered places for good sound were the small jazz bars, where I used to seat meters away from the drum, piano, trumpet etc - no mics, except for the singer when he/she was present - most of times was only instrumental.
But for other popular music including R&B, rock, disco etc, there is no option, unfortunately. In this case, my own room is better, I agree with you 🙂
The repertoire is really a problem. I used to got to that nice place I mentioned just for the sound experience, since I don't like much classical music.
My prefered places for good sound were the small jazz bars, where I used to seat meters away from the drum, piano, trumpet etc - no mics, except for the singer when he/she was present - most of times was only instrumental.
But for other popular music including R&B, rock, disco etc, there is no option, unfortunately. In this case, my own room is better, I agree with you 🙂
The microphones are in the ceiling, for piano or singers they close mic.
Witnessed close to 50 concerts there, I visited the recording room... incredible, 5 reel to reel multichannel, great great stuff , crazy stuff, the engineer told me they had the best microphones in the world.
now its digital
Witnessed close to 50 concerts there, I visited the recording room... incredible, 5 reel to reel multichannel, great great stuff , crazy stuff, the engineer told me they had the best microphones in the world.
now its digital
Not really in all cases. I once did an outdoor show in the Berkeley Greek theater for an acoustical folk music program called "The Bread and Roses Festival." The MC asked the audience if sound was okay which produced a standing ovation. It was unusual enough to be mentioned in a concert review article one of the big San Francisco newspapers (back before the internet, that is).
And you know what? It did sound really good that night. For one thing atmospheric conditions were very favorable. Also, I didn't have to push the PA system anywhere near its limit. It was all the best stuff Altec Lansing and JBL made back then, all horns even for bass. I only used the best sounding horns for my gigs when I could, and that time I could.
OTOH, when I was a high school student I paid to for a symphony seat in what was mostly a nice sounding concert hall. All I could afford was a seat somewhat off to the side way up in the upper part of the 2nd balcony. If you think room reverb sounds great then maybe you would like it. I was bored silly by hearing very little live direct sound, mostly just room reverberations.
Surprised no one mentioned the old Sheffield Labs Track & Drum direct to disc album. Its solo drum tracks are tops. On a dynamic, wide bandwidth system, especially OB or Omni, it's quite believable if you can get it playing loud enough without distortion. 45yo recording, still outstanding. I don't think I've heard better recorded rock drumming. Listened to the Jim Keltner solo recently, a digital version that I think was recorded on half inch 2 track analog tape alongside the direct to disc.
One other thing, some cymbals are meant to be recorded, others sound great without microphones. I had a set of Paiste Signature cymbals and sometimes they were pain to play. Specifically in small venues, with little or none microphones. But they were awesome when captured. Paiste Formula 602 or 2002 were exact opposite. They kind of "filled" the room with warm, pleasant sound and allowed for gentle dynamics. I preferred those old cymbals in the end.
a lot of Pa "haters" around here it seems....shame that without touring and concerts to promote media sales the industry would suffer.
and some new loudspeaker tech that's making it's way into the hands of DIY'er's all seems to come from developments in the pro live sound.
and some new loudspeaker tech that's making it's way into the hands of DIY'er's all seems to come from developments in the pro live sound.
Pat Metheny’s ‘Orchestrion’ album, was produced via Pat playing his guitar along with a custom built Orchestrion accompanying him for all other sounds. Those sounds are apparently triggered by Pat’s guitar. So, it’s a solo performance, in that sense. One can’t help but wonder what will be the effect of A.I. generated accompaniment, and, ultimately, of symphonic composition. Robotic Mozarts?
I'm a little surprised to see not much discussion in this thread about distortion, especially for digital sources. A cheap DAC will mangle high frequencies into a nasty monotextural mush, be it cymbals, vocal sibilants, string overtones or whatever. For me this is the greatest killer of realism in reproduction. There are all sorts of electrical mechanisms that destroy the very subtle harmonic information that gives us spatial and textural cues and in turn generate listener fatigue. If I had to make a choice about only one area of reproduction to improve, that would be it.
I frequently use fullrange loudspeakers covered diy with aluminium foil of various thickness.
This gives a large radiating area, point source, no crossover.
Adding indirect radiating tweeter(s) gives more dispersion in the highs if not done otherwise.
Such speakers can easily reproduce even the loudest cymbals.
The Fane Sovereign 15-300tc has up to 110db efficiency in the higher frequencies.
linearized with dsp and a powerful amp be prepared for good dynamic reproduction.
This gives a large radiating area, point source, no crossover.
Adding indirect radiating tweeter(s) gives more dispersion in the highs if not done otherwise.
Such speakers can easily reproduce even the loudest cymbals.
The Fane Sovereign 15-300tc has up to 110db efficiency in the higher frequencies.
linearized with dsp and a powerful amp be prepared for good dynamic reproduction.
Modern cheap dac's don't do that anymore. Different asian brands have shown that a 100€ dac or even cheaper can be better than anything that existed 10 years ago, and can be up to par to the best dacs in the world. That has been proven more than once.
That does not mean cheap dac's are always like that, certainly not. But it can be done. And if you study or measure what you have or will buy you can find top notch dac's for very cheap. A MiniDSP Flex is such a cheap (multichannel) dac that is top of the line, just like some cheap asian dacs from brands like Topping and SMSL. But those are not the only ones off course and those cheap are often very fragile build (and have little support). If you want a sturdier box, and more support and so, get an RME ADI dac and you got one of the best of the world arround for not a fortune.
But dacs are today a solved problem, where mainstream systems are beyond the resolution of what we can hear, so....