1. World leading performance
2. Quality control to achieve world leading performance
3. Desired profit margin
2. Quality control to achieve world leading performance
3. Desired profit margin
All of your concerns are visible in the difference in price that is all incorporated in the manufacturing/profit margin/selling cost.
JBL purchases the completed diaphragm's from Materion.
The Be foil used is just as rugged as a typical Al diaphragm, is not going to shatter and does not require any special handling once mounted in support mounting ring.
Be is toxic if you grind, machine or abrade it and inhale the dust. Used BeO substates for years the only special handling was they were packed individually so they could not rub against each other and create dust. The Be in it's finished state is safe.
There is a significant difference between the foil vs the vapor deposited as in older TAD CD's which could shatter.
The market decides the demand. Be is expensive everyone makes their own choices.
These are Pro drivers. The TOTL 2435Be is used in their larger Vertec cabinets 3 in each. The Al version in their lower cost pro cabinets. There are consumer versions used in the 9800 being Be and in the Array series being Al both of these versions have aquaplas coated diaphragm's.
I have 435Be and they sound great to me.
Rob 🙂
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All profit maximizing firms have a desired profit margin of infinity. Unfortunately for them, competition, entry and exit will drive profit margins to levels comparable in other industries. (If this wasn't the case, then either every company in the world would be making speakers at high levels of profit or no companies would be making speakers because they could shift their resources into something more profitable.)
If the ONLY difference is the material cost and the Be sell for quite a bit more than this difference (and you do make a convincing case) then it is because demand for Be drivers is higher relative to supply. There could be numerous reasons why, but prices are higher because either demand is higher or supply is lower.
Then by definition they would have an infinite retail price. I've yet to see any product sold with an infinite retail price.
Feel free to change desirable to "achievable" or "stakeholder satisfied" or whatever. But a profit margin has to be added above costs.
Firms don't choose their profits or add profits above costs. Firms chose the quantity that they produce and try to control their costs. In general firms are "price takers" in that that the MARKET determines the price. The MARKET is supply and demand at the market level.
https://courses.lumenlearning.com/w...ximization-in-a-perfectly-competitive-market/
A firm may have some price setting ability if the goods are not perfect substitutes (such as Purifi and Scan-speak) but they still are constrained by the characteristics of their market, entry, exit, barriers to entry, product differentiation, elasticity of demand, elasticity of substitution, etc. But you already pointed this out yourself in that we don't see infinitely priced speaker drivers. In fact, a profit maximizing firm would have set it's price to maximize profits - thus, if it increased its price, quantity would fall more than proportionately - and if it decreased its price quantity would fall less than proportionately. Intuitively, if Scan-speak could increase its profits by raising its price materially and selling just a little less it would, and if it could increase its profits by decreasing its price a little and selling quite a bit more, it would.
https://courses.lumenlearning.com/w...ximization-in-a-perfectly-competitive-market/
A firm may have some price setting ability if the goods are not perfect substitutes (such as Purifi and Scan-speak) but they still are constrained by the characteristics of their market, entry, exit, barriers to entry, product differentiation, elasticity of demand, elasticity of substitution, etc. But you already pointed this out yourself in that we don't see infinitely priced speaker drivers. In fact, a profit maximizing firm would have set it's price to maximize profits - thus, if it increased its price, quantity would fall more than proportionately - and if it decreased its price quantity would fall less than proportionately. Intuitively, if Scan-speak could increase its profits by raising its price materially and selling just a little less it would, and if it could increase its profits by decreasing its price a little and selling quite a bit more, it would.
I think it is worth looking at the example of the JBL M2 reference monitor. The compression driver, horn and woofer cost less than 1000$ (retail). The launch price however was above $10,000 if I remember well. The same might be applicable for the 4367. Now, these are known to be good loudspeakers, but are still expensive to this day.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/diy-inspired-by-jbl-m2-master-reference-monitor.306965/
I don't really understand how they can sell a tweeter for $6.98. When we think about the incredible journey of materials and processing each piece takes from digging out the ground (where most of it comes from) to the customer, it's just insane. Production quantity only goes so far, some people and environments are getting raped to make that, I'm sure.
Yep, this holds true with both new and ancient speakers compared to the drivers that go into them. And if you're willing to put in the time to learn how to construct enclosures (lots of time), getting the drivers loose and orphaned is a great way to access sound you wouldn't otherwise be able to afford. With the vintage (antique, even) stuff I'm into... the difference is even more profound. Also, compression drivers sans the appropriate horn - which, if you were gonna want to build a le'cleach anyways...
And Tenson, for some reason I can't add your post to quote... I think that most of the products consumed by "the masses" can be described this way, and it factors in hugely to macro-economics. People in New Jersey or... Potsdorf, Gernamy... can afford to accept a salary of X dollars because they can get Y amount of stuff with it. When stuff is made within the same micro-economy, X must be alot bigger. When every single object that you buy from speakers to strawberry jam comes with an exchange rate discount, plus the cost reduction effect of this kinda massive-scale production... X can be allowed to stagnate or even shrink, without people ending up in the streets or worse - unionizing.
Then the moment that the supply chain is disrupted, and all the sudden you have to get carrots and beans from the farm down the road... that's when you realize that you're actually poor, relative to the value of labor in your local economy. You were just living off the backs of pseudo-slavery in the manufacturing economies of the world...
That's why people can afford a new car every 5 years, but getting a contractor to fix the sliding glass door, no way! What, you think we're rich or somethin'? Well, that and debt - modern monetary theory and stuff. Not being able to afford to build or maintain a home helps the banks gobble up all the things. Needing a loan to hire a contractor is exactly where they want people to be... poor but physically functional.
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Woah! OK, beryllium is very, very expensive! I knew it was expensive, I just didn’t know how expensive.
I have not seen this being mentioned before: the DIY market is small. It might not be the primary market of a manufacturer.
I feel some manufacturers treat the sale of individual drivers as a service of providing samples, while their bulk is business-to-business. The pricing of samples can be anything, it does not have to represent the items value.
I feel some manufacturers treat the sale of individual drivers as a service of providing samples, while their bulk is business-to-business. The pricing of samples can be anything, it does not have to represent the items value.
Yes individual costs are low after the design, R&D, QA, testing, measuring, integration, production design, etc are done. Also, isn’t the M2 software controlled? So there is software design, testing, integration too. That’s why the system costs so much. This makes a lot of sense. Also, JBL makes their engineering clear with white papers and advertising so you know what you are getting, most manufacturers don’t do that.
Two soft dome tweeters with almost identical design should have similar prices. The example I presented one has a neo magnet of good size, this could increase the cost a good bit and could require some design work to make it musical.
Number produced and sold.
The first one is very expensive per piece, but after 5000 copies the price per piece becomes something completely different.
The competition in the segment, the purpose of the product (premium or not), requirements, establishment or not on the market, etc. govern most of the price.
And of course....capitalism 😉
IIRC ETA owns Omega, Tissot, Longines, Rolex, and Swatch among others, you can find more information on the web.
The fact is that the Swiss watch industry was for the most part operating on a workshop scale, small factories with less than 100 workers, it was mostly in and around Geneva, where French is the preferred language, so the watch industry journals would describe the design in French terms, even in an English language journal.
My father disposed of his Henri Sandoz et fils watch, bought a Seiko in 1973, it is still with us.
My mom still has Titoni and Tressa watches...those names are long gone, Titoni folded in 1996.
What happened was that when you look at the mechanisms, and compare them to the Japanese movements, the medium price Swiss movements were junk in quality....Seiko was much better made, and cheaper.
I refer to 17 and 21 jewels movements, sometimes with the 'incabloc' shock absorber.
ETA took over some brands, and revived the Swiss flag in watches, so to speak, it dominates the Swiss watch industry.
As for drivers, making them is not micron tolerance technology, and patents are hard to enforce, so you have a choice of 'assembled from parts' (for example Scan-Speak) or factory made (Chinese mostly).
How they compare is a question that has been asked at many places, and personally I would buy a well made reasonably priced driver.
I am guilty of hoarding many Philips speakers purchased at the local flea market for an average of $2.50 a pair, and daily use is a flea market $7.50 Sony pair at home.
The office has a 8" driver + tweeter, locally made right here in my city (except for tweeter), and its large size, and the fact that I have no pesky neighbors at the office, allows me to enjoy it more, those are in large particle board enclosure, no padding or anything fancy.
One more thing to bear in mind is the effort needed to pack and ship single speakers in a way they will withstand package being thrown at many places...the factory supply units are in large cartons, which need fork lifts and the like.
Since many sellers say free shipping, that cost is added to the seller's price, to attract customers.
The fact is that the Swiss watch industry was for the most part operating on a workshop scale, small factories with less than 100 workers, it was mostly in and around Geneva, where French is the preferred language, so the watch industry journals would describe the design in French terms, even in an English language journal.
My father disposed of his Henri Sandoz et fils watch, bought a Seiko in 1973, it is still with us.
My mom still has Titoni and Tressa watches...those names are long gone, Titoni folded in 1996.
What happened was that when you look at the mechanisms, and compare them to the Japanese movements, the medium price Swiss movements were junk in quality....Seiko was much better made, and cheaper.
I refer to 17 and 21 jewels movements, sometimes with the 'incabloc' shock absorber.
ETA took over some brands, and revived the Swiss flag in watches, so to speak, it dominates the Swiss watch industry.
As for drivers, making them is not micron tolerance technology, and patents are hard to enforce, so you have a choice of 'assembled from parts' (for example Scan-Speak) or factory made (Chinese mostly).
How they compare is a question that has been asked at many places, and personally I would buy a well made reasonably priced driver.
I am guilty of hoarding many Philips speakers purchased at the local flea market for an average of $2.50 a pair, and daily use is a flea market $7.50 Sony pair at home.
The office has a 8" driver + tweeter, locally made right here in my city (except for tweeter), and its large size, and the fact that I have no pesky neighbors at the office, allows me to enjoy it more, those are in large particle board enclosure, no padding or anything fancy.
One more thing to bear in mind is the effort needed to pack and ship single speakers in a way they will withstand package being thrown at many places...the factory supply units are in large cartons, which need fork lifts and the like.
Since many sellers say free shipping, that cost is added to the seller's price, to attract customers.
Agree, that's what I wrote first, post #20.
Well, A4eaudio above asked how the companies manage to keep up the hype ... this is how. All their 'white papers' and advertising makes us think it is worth the money when JBL probably tests all speaker models to similar levels of detail, using similar equipment and software. The target customers are studios and 'audiorich' people, who clearly have a lot of money to pay.
No offence.
You don't.
Some yes, some no, one is a bit backwards.
When you make a statement, it's up to you to substantiate it, not for me to do your research for you. I asked for a citation for a reason.
I am manipulating paper cones with metal foils reinforcing them.
Its a job done all by hand.
I expected a modified stereo loudspeaker pair would never measure the same.
As I use measurement assisted dsp I could correct for left right speaker differences if necessary.
It came out that this was never necessary(!)
The benefit of a little correction wasn't it worth because a wrong wiring between left and right would double a slight problem.
So work by hand is not so inconsistent as one would expect.
I do not know where you got this information, but I can assure you that except from "assembled in Denmark" everything else is WRONG!
edit: Sorry, Scan-speak was owned by Danes...
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What part of what part needs a couple tenths tolerance?