tissot has a selfwinding watch, but generating electricity, they call it autoquartz. Tissot has made various, there is a swatch variant , and a rolex version. The generator was made by a dutch company in tilburg nl, as the 800 person research dept of swatch did not manage to produce the answer to the seiko kinetic. It was very painful having to buy the generator part in the netherlands. I simulated the generator in pspice at the time to help improving the efficiency. Tissot has the worlds only female autoquartz watch.
What a driver costs to make and distribute+sell isn't necessarily linked to what a company decides it will charge. Especially as we reach the more audiophile or even boutique end of the market, where buyers can actually collude in wanting to believe that greater cost must somehow be justified.
It can be quite interesting to compare the relatively cost of pro drivers, which are often cheaper yet much more capable than hifi types. Though unfortunately not always produced with hifi-like scales/sizes/applications in mind.
It can be quite interesting to compare the relatively cost of pro drivers, which are often cheaper yet much more capable than hifi types. Though unfortunately not always produced with hifi-like scales/sizes/applications in mind.
I don’t think tolerances, or precision in manufacturing, is an issue anymore. Any bright school kid can program a computer and run a laser machine. Every manufacturer of speakers should have by default very precise machinery.
Except for complex layering and exotic materials many very expensive hi-fi speakers are made from paper with ordinary ceramic magnets. Some cones are ‘hand made’ and it’s is difficult to get consistent results from humans, so it takes time and a lot of wasted material.
Except for complex layering and exotic materials many very expensive hi-fi speakers are made from paper with ordinary ceramic magnets. Some cones are ‘hand made’ and it’s is difficult to get consistent results from humans, so it takes time and a lot of wasted material.
Except for guitar speakers I think you are right. There is the belief that, for example, I want to sound like Eric Clapton. Then I need a Strat like his, I need his kind of amplifier, I need the speakers he uses. Manufacturers can charge a premium for that because of demand. However, no matter what guitar Clapton plays in whatever amp, he still sounds like Clapton.
Again, reference, please. Where do you get this information?
I don't want to derail Arthur's thread. I asked one poster to cite a reference to what I believe to be incorrect information, and now you've jumped on. If you are going to state things adjacent to what I've asked, please have the courtesy to actually provide a reference.
IMO, a company that makes movements of which a few have been used in Rolex watches certainly is not the company "behind" Rolex. You may feel differently.
Either way, please let the other poster answer the question. I asked them to substantiate their claim with a reference. Or, they can PM me. I have no interest in taking Arthur's thread further off topic, but I am curious about their information source, and I'd like to learn more.
Kind of on the other end of the spectrum, for large brands very little improves the manufacturing margins more than bringing driver manufacturing in-house. In addition to reducing total costs it also creates an air of being more of a manufacturer than an assembler and makes it completely impossible to gauge the overall driver costs, which so many of us love to do.
I think it sets at least the lowest possible sell price. For a store brand I believe you must sell the speaker for ~ 10x the driver costs. Of course, I've seen speakers charge much more, and direct to consumer makers for much less. 10x seems about the right amount if using a typical speaker brand.
If you look at specs for drivers thd more expensive ones are often much worse but look exotic. So far the audiofools have been right only with tubes in the preamp.
Changing from drivers to crossover components, I have noticed the same trend with some inductors and capacitors getting very expensive. I've been thinking of 3D printing inductors and capacitors as a way to save significant money. I would use ABS filament because it is much more heat tolerant. What do you think?
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Of course, if you have an electronics background you think that is nonsense. My lack of understanding the laws of electricity doesn't actually change the laws of electricity.
But that is what this thread is like to an economist. Post #2 was a little tongue-in-cheek, but it IS the answer. The valid points in the thread fit into the supply-demand model, even if the poster doesn't realize it.
If the argument relies on "something special" about the speaker market or some puzzle about consumers rationality, then it's questionable. But, if it IS valid, then it fits into the supply-demand model, even if it is not obvious how. Not understanding the laws of economics doesn't change the laws of economics.
Georg Ohm determined what was later to be named Ohm's Law around 1826. Alfred Marshall published his Principle of Economics in 1890, consolidating the works of Jevons (1871), Menger (1871) and Walras (1874). The basics of Neoclassical Price Theory have been around awhile.
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Of course, if you have an electronics background you think that is nonsense. My lack of understanding the laws of electricity doesn't actually change the laws of electricity.
But that is what this thread is like to an economist. Post #2 was a little tongue-in-cheek, but it IS the answer. The valid points in the thread fit into the supply-demand model, even if the poster doesn't realize it.
If the argument relies on "something special" about the speaker market or some puzzle about consumers rationality, then it's questionable. But, if it IS valid, then it fits into the supply-demand model, even if it is not obvious how. Not understanding the laws of economics doesn't change the laws of economics.
Georg Ohm determined what was later to be named Ohm's Law around 1826. Alfred Marshall published his Principle of Economics in 1890, consolidating the works of Jevons (1871), Menger (1871) and Walras (1874). The basics of Neoclassical Price Theory have been around awhile.
Depends on what they are doing inhouse.
For example they could farm out the frames and any secondary machining. Add the magnetic assembles charge them and add cones of do none of it.
They could also use cone kits set-up like JBL re-cone kits that are completely assembled less installation into the completed frame.
They could purchase completed drivers, stuffed crossover boards and completed cabinets.
Then it would be simple assembly needing no precision machining all of that sub contracted out.
Rob 🙂
if you want something special like exotic cone materials with certain properties a driver gets expensive.
For this diy is a remedy. Current driven amps making sophisticated motors (coil/magnet) unnecessary or diy making a sandwich cone from simple paper loudspeaker cone
For this diy is a remedy. Current driven amps making sophisticated motors (coil/magnet) unnecessary or diy making a sandwich cone from simple paper loudspeaker cone
Good reviews can hike the price of any so-so product. The Linn LP 12 is a classic example.
Further, making something - anything - with a price many times that of the competition, regardless of actual superiority (or not) instantly adds kudos for those with money to burn and who live for bragging or ****-waving rights. I give you... Audiophools.
Further, making something - anything - with a price many times that of the competition, regardless of actual superiority (or not) instantly adds kudos for those with money to burn and who live for bragging or ****-waving rights. I give you... Audiophools.
Actually, I understand the economics fairly well, my degree is a bit old but like you pointed out the principles are the same. I’m more interested in what goes into the very expensive drivers? Well, besides the absurd marketing claims. I don’t think materials can increase the cost of a driver by two orders of magnitude. Maybe I’m wrong about that. I don’t think manufacturing can do that either. Maybe I’m wrong about that too? The engineering involved with the JBL and kef drivers definitely shows and the JBL drivers are reasonably priced to compensate for some good engineering and I don’t think there are any oddball elements required.
It's interesting to note how few PA drivers are exorbitantly priced. Those that are a bit on the pricy side tend to be just a little esoteric (Beyma AMTs for example) and therefore have smaller production runs, but thankfully there is little snake oil in that branch of music reproduction, and considerably more innovation than the home hifi market, which seems to move at sub-glacial pace in comparison...
Take a look at these links. These drivers are completely identical except Al vs. Be so a significant difference in price from just the Be foil.
https://reconingspeakers.com/products-page/jbl-2431-d8r2431-diaphragm/
https://reconingspeakers.com/products-page/jbl-2435hpl-d8r2435-beryllium-diaphragm/
https://reconingspeakers.com/products-page/jbl-2431h-driver/
https://reconingspeakers.com/products-page/jbl-2435hpl-driver-125-30001-00x/
How does this work? How does the company keep up the charade that they are sophisticated by just raising the price? Do no actual users measure them, post the measurements, listen to them, post reviews? How long could this last... 6 months?
The speakers I think of as being expensive are Seas, Scan-speak, Purifi, Accuton, Morel, Audio Technology...I don't think any of them make absurd marketing claims. The interesting thing about these is that I know many people who have listened to some of these brand's drivers and found them to sound excellent. Most of these measure excellent too, although my understanding is that Accuton ceramic midranges don't measure that great. From the opposite perspective, what brands are very expensive and generally accepted that they don't sound very good?
So from the supply side, we have: materials costs, labor costs (assembly, R&D, Sales & Marketing), cost of equipment (Scan-speak has specialized equipment for their sliced cone drivers), factory and office space, quality control, customer service, after sales support, etc.
Most comments have focused on the supply side items. But from the demand side we have the demand for good sound and good measurements (usually low distortion). Also, the demand for appearance. (My understanding is that Eton drivers were "overpriced" relative to their performance, but they had some beautiful drivers that I would have probably used at some point if they didn't exit the DIY market.) Also reputation. Scan-speak was founded in 1970 and designed world class drivers (using European priced labor) and spent decades building a reputation. There are some opinions that they have fallen behind some competitors from a technical perspective, but they can charge a Quality Premium based on past reputational effects.
I know of one budget-driver company that has had batches of drivers with misaligned dust caps, changes in T/S parameters because of changes made at the assembly factory (without the mfg's knowledge), tweeters with the pole piece not stuffed correctly. Guess what...that company is not able to charge a quality premium. They could try, they could double the cost and say their drivers are premium, but do you think they would sell more of fewer drivers? To be fair, a company probably can spend more money on advertising, hire some movie stars to endorse their speakers, and maybe charge a little premium - but how is that different than any other product?
The price difference is NOT just the Be foil. Beryllium is fragile and toxic. Do you need different tooling (more specialized, more accurate?) to work with Be? Do workers need more training, wage hazard premium, higher insurance costs to work with Be? Is the quality control/quality assurance more expensive for the more fragile Be drivers? Is the packaging and shipping more expensive?
But you also forgot about demand. Is there a higher demand for Be drivers? (Maybe the manufacturers influenced this by promoting Be drivers with advertising expenditures, but most people I know do think they sound good.)