I sort of suspect, but can't say for a fact, that if amplifiers ever do get into a situation where they produce some, even a pretty small amount of audible distortion, it may be easier to design a discrete one wherein the distortion sounds "good." Of course, some people may more sensitive to hearing tiny amounts of distortion as compared to other people. Just like some people are taller or shorter, or have different color hair, or anything else. For the more sensitive types, it may be important to them.
In addition, it is well established that people can imagine some differences. Sorting out the real from the imagined in an accurate, scientific way can be difficult in some cases. To further complicate matters, there may be some tendency to assume all differences not heard by a majority of people can be safely attributed to imagination. Personally speaking, have my doubts about such assumptions.
Personally, I think that vacuum tubes are potentially the best. Then all fet class A discrete, then mixed jfet-bipolar discrete, then discrete bipolar, then mixed jfet-bipolar hi open loop bandwidth IC's and finally regular high quality IC's.
I have designed with each category, over the decades, always trying to beat the finest vacuum tubes, for almost 50 years now. I have never completely achieved this, but I have gotten close with the CTC Blowtorch and the Vendetta Research phono stage. I can achieve an 'A' rating with the editors of various hi fi magazines, even with just plain high quality IC's, but they don't compare to my very best, or the best tube equipment, in direct comparison.
I have designed with each category, over the decades, always trying to beat the finest vacuum tubes, for almost 50 years now. I have never completely achieved this, but I have gotten close with the CTC Blowtorch and the Vendetta Research phono stage. I can achieve an 'A' rating with the editors of various hi fi magazines, even with just plain high quality IC's, but they don't compare to my very best, or the best tube equipment, in direct comparison.
Mark,
the problem becomes one of opinions at some point. Even if you could measure every type of distortion and found two amplifiers that had nearly identical measured specification I would think you would still have to deal with personal opinions at some level.
Back to a car analogy it would be no different than two people arguing over what is the better sports car, a Corvetter or a Porsche. They could have exactly the same track speed, same G-force cornering numbers and many other factors that align and there would still be those who would argue that one is better than the other, just human nature really. So I don't think you can ever come to a agreement or even real consensus.
So the argument that you can test a large group who all think there was some equivalency between two designs and that a couple of outlier's don't agree does not discount the majority opinion, and that is all that it would be, an opinion. No two people are exactly alike and to have major agreements about something like the audibility of something does not mean there won't be some particular person who has some extraordinary hearing abilities that thinks differently due to a real perception difference. How can you ever factor that into these types of technical discussion of devices, I just don't see that you can satisfy everyone with a single answer to a complex question. It is just to easy to discount others opinions when there are no true standards, there is no best sounding system, just not something that has ever been able to be demonstrated. I could say what you think you hear is a function of the speakers or the room you are listening on or in and no amount of argument and measured results could disprove that factor, this is not the same as trying to land a spacecraft on an asteroid, you either land or crash, nothing else you can do. Those disagreeable sounds some speak of can be totally unrelated to use of an opamp but how do you prove that to the true believer?
the problem becomes one of opinions at some point. Even if you could measure every type of distortion and found two amplifiers that had nearly identical measured specification I would think you would still have to deal with personal opinions at some level.
Back to a car analogy it would be no different than two people arguing over what is the better sports car, a Corvetter or a Porsche. They could have exactly the same track speed, same G-force cornering numbers and many other factors that align and there would still be those who would argue that one is better than the other, just human nature really. So I don't think you can ever come to a agreement or even real consensus.
So the argument that you can test a large group who all think there was some equivalency between two designs and that a couple of outlier's don't agree does not discount the majority opinion, and that is all that it would be, an opinion. No two people are exactly alike and to have major agreements about something like the audibility of something does not mean there won't be some particular person who has some extraordinary hearing abilities that thinks differently due to a real perception difference. How can you ever factor that into these types of technical discussion of devices, I just don't see that you can satisfy everyone with a single answer to a complex question. It is just to easy to discount others opinions when there are no true standards, there is no best sounding system, just not something that has ever been able to be demonstrated. I could say what you think you hear is a function of the speakers or the room you are listening on or in and no amount of argument and measured results could disprove that factor, this is not the same as trying to land a spacecraft on an asteroid, you either land or crash, nothing else you can do. Those disagreeable sounds some speak of can be totally unrelated to use of an opamp but how do you prove that to the true believer?
John,
Given that last statement about vacuum tubes why then don't you create your best work with those tubes? Why not the signature JCTube amplifier design, why would you ignore what you think would give the ultimate end result? I imagine that there would be a ready market for a tube design by John Curl.
Given that last statement about vacuum tubes why then don't you create your best work with those tubes? Why not the signature JCTube amplifier design, why would you ignore what you think would give the ultimate end result? I imagine that there would be a ready market for a tube design by John Curl.
Yes, we have opinions. But we also have a lot of science and engineering. To some degree we can use our science and engineering in ways that help to inform opinion, and sometimes they eventually sway the opinions of many, many people in very significant ways. So, I don't think it's hopeless.
For our purposes here, it would be nice if we could make continuing progress on easy to build, inexpensive Hi-Fi gear satisfying to the perceptual machinery of nearly everybody. In that effort, it might be nice to know more about the limits and statistical distribution of the more acute and sensitive end of human hearing capabilities.
For our purposes here, it would be nice if we could make continuing progress on easy to build, inexpensive Hi-Fi gear satisfying to the perceptual machinery of nearly everybody. In that effort, it might be nice to know more about the limits and statistical distribution of the more acute and sensitive end of human hearing capabilities.
Tiny is not the point, There remains a strong contingent of those that will claim any solution without the 3% THD of their beloved 45's is "inferior". This includes folks with a large body of experience in listening to and producing recorded music, Nelson Pass' proverbial "10,000 hours".
The point of inferior vs superior is irrelevant it should be more can many modern op-amps produce a sound indistinguishable from the one often described as analytical and serile by these folks and accurate by others.
I would say that's been done, the buying masses have spoken with their lack of interest. Pono, SACD, etc.
My big disappointment this year is all the processing going into TV's to make movies look more like videos. Saw another 4K at a relative's house this Thanksgiving, a standard HD DVD was unwatchable by MY standards. So I understand in a way the SET guys. I want 24 FPS, grainey, real film with all its stochastic resonances and depth of focus, etc. issues.
https://www.cnet.com/news/what-is-the-soap-opera-effect/
Regarding those with a taste for THD, what you have described seems to be a claim on their part that their taste is superior to other people's tastes. I'm not sure we could consider that one a scientific or engineering claim. So, I not quite clear on why it is a point at all, unless maybe it is more a point for a psychology forum?
Regarding your other point about accurate verses analytical and sterile, I would agree it can be psychological issue depending on what it is people are wanting in the way of performance. However, on this point, if several well recognized and successful mastering engineers independently found that one IC op-amp line amp sounds a little better than another, it might bear some serious investigation. That is, they may be hearing something real, but that is not something everybody readily can hear. However, it might be very important for what they are doing. Again, it's not clear we are great at understanding the limits of distortion perception. It's not like visual acuity that is easy to measure. We readily accept than somebody with 20-25 vision is probably less naturally equipped to be a fighter pilot that somebody with 20-15 vision, or even 20-10. We don't have an equivalently good way of measuring distortion perception acuity. I don't want to put everybody's claims into the same BS bin, which would seem to me unwise.
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Scott, have you watched the LG oled with the interpolation off? If you are looking for a new set; it's the real deal.
What to say? The buying masses have spoken? Maybe the jury is still out on this one. But then again, VHS did win over BetaMax. You never know.
I still feel there is potential for better hi-end and hi resolution audio, but the nicest JC stuff is still very pricy! We need a nice, cheap, little IC that will go in a cell phone to emulate a JC top-of-the-line product. Then let's let the public have another go at it and see if they like and want it.
Also, a lot of audio sold as HD is not really that. It is just the same old stuff run through an newer A/D converter, and I have heard some that sounds worse to me than the CD. Then again, I have heard mp3 that sounds better than the CD. Depends on the quality of the CD or HD audio to begin with. If a CD sounds bad, a good mp3 encoder can sometimes discard the stuff we don't care to listen to anyway. The result can in some cases sound better.
These failed for a different reason - convenience. Form factor for the first and copy protection for the second.
There is no 'magic' in what I design. I simply use more design rules than most of you. For example, I prefer Class A, no matter that I can make Class B with almost the same thd. I prefer certain brands of resistors and capacitors, that have been proven out by either measurement or listening tests, preferably both.
I like fast rather than slow. I try not to extra load a typical IC output, even though it might be the easiest path to do so. I direct couple where possible, removing coupling caps almost everywhere. I extra regulate IC based power supplies with cap multipliers in almost every design. I use fast rectifier diodes, rather than standard diodes when possible. etc. etc. It all adds up!
I like fast rather than slow. I try not to extra load a typical IC output, even though it might be the easiest path to do so. I direct couple where possible, removing coupling caps almost everywhere. I extra regulate IC based power supplies with cap multipliers in almost every design. I use fast rectifier diodes, rather than standard diodes when possible. etc. etc. It all adds up!
Not sure If I mentioned this a while back but BFI in London regularly shows films on celluloid, claiming that B&W films cannot be bettered with modern prints. They have the only certified projection suite in UK allowed to use it. It is reported to be built like a bunker!
That would be Cellulose Acetate. It was the common film base for a long time, until "safety film" was invented. Its also an explosive. Many old projection booths are built to contain a powerful fire.
They have a point. If you want cane sugar in your coffee, no corn syrup can "better" it.
Our university has a dedicated theater. About | Cinematheque
"As the screening facility of the Wisconsin Center for Film and Theater Research (WCFTR)
and a member of the International Federation of Film Archives (FIAF), the Cinematheque
regularly showcases archival and other rare prints from around the world. The Cinematheque
has one of the finest projection facilities in Wisconsin and screens a variety of formats,
including 35mm and 16mm (both on reel-to-reel projection systems), and multiple standard
and high definition video formats. It is the Cinematheque's policy to screen films only in the
best available versions in the correct aspect ratio, and, if silent, at the appropriate speed
and with musical accompaniment."
Funny you mention that, one of our MEMs gurus did a start up that was bought out by Comcast. They were doing a MEMS based display that worked in full sunlight that was intended to be competition for OLED and last night I saw a fairly impressive prototype Samsung tablet. Apparently the plug has been pulled.
No need to go there, it is an expression of preference plain and simple no value judgements necessary.
Why can't someone have a simple preference for something that obviously colors the result, I'm not making any assumption that they are taking a moral high ground.
This as with many things has many levels of complication. The history of 35mm vs 16mm film stock diverges because of safety concerns with 16mm prints being shown in non-professional situations. From personal experience a fresh 16mm print of "The Maltese Falcon" pulled from the original negatives in 1971 was magnificent. I mean, really, enjoy the show.
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