By jove! I've got it!
By jove! I've got it!
If you start a thread on the history of opamps, you get what's wrong with opamps!
If you start a thread on what's wrong with opamps, you get the history of opamps!
!
By jove! I've got it!
If you start a thread on the history of opamps, you get what's wrong with opamps!
If you start a thread on what's wrong with opamps, you get the history of opamps!
!
Yes, things got out of hand, but I wanted to give credit for some of the EARLY app notes, even from the '60's that gave me a lot more design freedom to make audio products later. Bob Widlar was one of the first and one of the best. By the way, he spoke out personally, at the 1974 ISSCC (big engineering conference) that we should design our OWN op amps, because the linear op amps of the day were NOT designed for audio, and I have been doing it ever since. '-)
This suggests that Widlar knew what is wrong with opamps.
And, being Widlar, he never told anyone. He's probably still laughing...
And, being Widlar, he never told anyone. He's probably still laughing...
Apparently Widlar knew that IC op amps of the time were NOT really designed for audio use. When he told me, he was answering my question about the use of IC amps in an auditorium full of engineers. In fact, Walt Jung was also there, in Philadelphia, at the ISSCC Conference in 1974, and that is how and when we first met. Then Walt and I discussed IC op amp problems for the rest of the evening. How do you think that audio research gets started? Walt and I then separately spent years on the problems of SID-TIM, PIM, and every other problem with IC's (or discrete) with respect to audio. You might ask him, if you want.
It is now 2016 isn't it I believe, maybe there has been some improvements in the last 40/50 odd years... and possibly some advances in audio despite the general Luddite attitude that does seem to permeate from some of the hardcore factions of the hobby (op-amps, digital, SMPSs etc. are all bad)...
🙂
🙂
Can we say merely "problematic"?
Or, if ur on the other part of this spectrum, then "potentially problematic"?
When one says "bad" then everything is rendered into black & white, no grey tones, and no colors. Why push the discussion (everyone here...) with hyperbole and exaggeration? Moderation and balance is better plan.
Obviously there have been a slew of IC opamps designed for audio in this century, the 21st.
I stand by my original comment, read some of the threads and you will see that certain factions dis all that is modern, including in many cases op-amps... I am not pushing the conversation just an observation of the "true believers" on the forum. Spent many a happy day in heated discourse with them...🙂
So after not reading this thread for a couple of weeks I see that it has progressed little besides some now trying to be a bit more diplomatic with their responses which is nice in itself. At the same time I still see that there are as Marce just stated those who just stay with the position that all opamps must be bad and discrete opamp design is the only thing that can work for audio. This seems to be the equivalent to those who believe that only horns and compression drivers can convey the music correctly, dynamic driver must be inferior due to the efficiency differential, as if that is the only factor in reproduction of sound. Another original thread from Lynn Olson goes as far as to say that only vacuum tubes sound correctly to reproduce music and any SS amplification is inferior, there is no wiggle room from Lynn on that subject, it is fact in his mind. I think we have the same sort of thinking here by some about opamps, it doesn't seem to matter any real evidence, the facts are the facts and IC opamps will always be inferior period it seems. An open mind it seems is hard to find, and those who seems to listen and offer learned advice just are put into the camp of EE believers, as if the EE's have some inherent block and understanding of high quality audio, as if you must have cloth ears to be an EE! In the end it seems we have gotten very little into any real objective testing that proves there is anything wrong with a properly implemented opamp in an audio circuit.
Taking the element of ritual out of their hobby is just something that maybe shouldn't happen. These threads are always mixed with this aspect as well as the technical arguments.
DH with the Sakuma System-1
Very few have state of the art test equipment to, or close to it , to verify that constructed circuits perform as predicted. Fewer yet seem to want to build test boxes and then perform well implemented human subject testing, especially taking into consideration some of the more recent research into short term memory of subtle sound differences. Our preconceptions of how we think ABX testing should work may not be quite right, although I suspect there are ways to sort that possibility out with some further well designed testing. Any volunteers?
Also, I'm not sure I see a need to focus primarily on the most polarized opinions out there. It often turns out that more moderate views are more likely to come closer to the truth. Isn't it the truth we want to find out? Or do we just want whatever side choose to be on to win? Unfortunately, with people, considerable research points at the latter possibility as being the more likely, regardless of how objective anyone, or everyone, imagines themselves to be. Part of being human, and having a biological brain, given what we now know and continue to learn.
I am no EE so I can only follow these conversations and learn what I can from afar. What I am wondering about is an experiment that may answer some of these questions. Someone who knows the inner workings and even the actual implementation for a particular IC opamp could take that opamp and make a working circuit with that device and at the same time create a discrete copy of that opamp with the same topology using only discrete devices and compare the results, perhaps a null test to see what differences show up? Would the two circuits sound the same or is there something that would show up that could point to any real issues I surely couldn't answer.
Well, I dunno... I have on several occasions suggested a real world test using actual hardware and asked all who read/participate to cooperatively help to make it happen.
It may be merely a starting point, and not "proof" or "definitive", but it is a starting point.
So for nobody publicly or via private communication has expressed any sincere desire to "get on board". Personally, I have a hyper long "to do list", and I am sure many others here do as well, which is why I had hoped for a number of people coming in to collaborate, especially WRT those things that they have special expertise and/or facility (eg. board layout, detailed circuit engineering, etc...), so that it could get done, and nobody would have to dump in extraordinary man-hours.
But it seems that just about everyone prefers to yap about this rather than do. Notwithstanding how much they get done outside of this thread or forum. To me it's rather disappointing, especially given how many average DIYer's build stuff here and how many (can we call them) advanced DIYers design and build too.
I keep hoping that the endless merry-go-round is going to spin off and get somewhere...
...I suppose eventually I'll try to get this done myself, alone - it is something that I think worthy of some investigation from angles I have not yet seen in print ( at least not in full context and description).
_-_-
It may be merely a starting point, and not "proof" or "definitive", but it is a starting point.
So for nobody publicly or via private communication has expressed any sincere desire to "get on board". Personally, I have a hyper long "to do list", and I am sure many others here do as well, which is why I had hoped for a number of people coming in to collaborate, especially WRT those things that they have special expertise and/or facility (eg. board layout, detailed circuit engineering, etc...), so that it could get done, and nobody would have to dump in extraordinary man-hours.
But it seems that just about everyone prefers to yap about this rather than do. Notwithstanding how much they get done outside of this thread or forum. To me it's rather disappointing, especially given how many average DIYer's build stuff here and how many (can we call them) advanced DIYers design and build too.
I keep hoping that the endless merry-go-round is going to spin off and get somewhere...
...I suppose eventually I'll try to get this done myself, alone - it is something that I think worthy of some investigation from angles I have not yet seen in print ( at least not in full context and description).
_-_-
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Various people have made various claims that could be tested. Mostly the claims seem in regard to when and if different op-amps might sound audibly different to a human listener who has particularly acute hearing. The claims may include cases where the signal is processed by more than one op-amp, or only one.
I for one have little interest this, frankly I listened for years to an open-loop JFET phono stage with passive EQ and found it "transparent" but could not really say it I could tell the difference between it and the AD624 pre-amp Walt Jung and I built or even a Hafler 101.
I've been into JFET's since I was 19 and for me there is an element of what I call "ritual" to it. Right now I'm working on a diff-in diff-out open-loop all in one stage passive RIAA with JFET's. But unlike Gary Pimm's push pull 2A3's I can't help but get it to do <.01% THD and low noise as well.
BTW I've listened to Conrad Johnston and Audio Research too. Decent refereed DBT's are tedious and boring I have no interest in participating myself.
To that point Mooly, BWaslow, and PMA have all posted some "not proof or definitive" casual listening tests. Have you participated in any of them (I might have missed it)? I can't hear the Souza band BTW nor could I tell any difference between 4 of 5 of Mooly's files.
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Mark,
It seems that even the most ardent objectivist among this group has said and stated that different opamps sound different, I don't think that has been a question for some time now. What the OP of the thread was asking is what is wrong if anything with IC opamps. I think there is more argument that just swapping opamps into circuits willy nilly was a false answer to this question than anything else.
The basic question returns to is there anything actually inferior to IC opamps over discrete designs and with properly designed circuits using these opamps is there truly any real issue to discount the use of them. Not much more from what I have followed.
It seems that even the most ardent objectivist among this group has said and stated that different opamps sound different, I don't think that has been a question for some time now. What the OP of the thread was asking is what is wrong if anything with IC opamps. I think there is more argument that just swapping opamps into circuits willy nilly was a false answer to this question than anything else.
The basic question returns to is there anything actually inferior to IC opamps over discrete designs and with properly designed circuits using these opamps is there truly any real issue to discount the use of them. Not much more from what I have followed.
Let's be careful with argumentum ad temperantiam. From the valve vs opamp debate it doesn't necessarily result that a hybrid circuit is the correct answer.
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