Interesting. When the sound is harsh in our system, we ask "should it sound that harsh?" When the sound is not harsh in our system, we ask "shouldn't it sound harsh?"
It's hard to know what a recording should sound like, unless we have many different amps to show us when a recording can sound so dramatically different (then we can make a good guess).
In this recording, at the beginning, there is a grinding sound of a metal work to build a Steinway piano. It sounds okay in my system, but in real life I'm pretty sure I will run away 😀
YouTube
I'm not sure, isn't there too many harmonics and other noise from brass instruments? Piano can be a good test.
😀 you are very right ... some sounds are very harsh by nature ... if the system makes them less harsh is taking out/veiling something 🙄
not true to the original i mean
on the topic of brass instruments i have a cd same music as this one by Sheffield Labs great label
YouTube
with many solid state systems is just unbearable ... flat harsh cold everything ... with the right ones very exciting
If i remember well the recording engineer Doug Sax used to recommend tube equipments ... i think he had an analog mixer with tubes ? not sure
It’s hard to tune a system to any instruments unless your very familiar with the specific brand/model and the style of the artist playing it.
I tune to vocals and everything else seems to fall into place, human hearing is very sensitive in the vocal range.
I tune to vocals and everything else seems to fall into place, human hearing is very sensitive in the vocal range.
N101N:
Thanks for these sober responses. You're right about orthogonality—not the right word.
1. Do you concur that carbon resistors sound less grainy than film? There are many others who think this is bogus, but I'm willing to entertain it until I hear it myself.
2. You say balanced-differential is "inherently unstable", which superficially doesn't make sense to me otherwise the amp wouldn't settle. Can you point me to a technical reference that clarifies this? Thanks!
Analog_SA:
I have not experimented with swapping ceramic miller caps for polystyrene because I don't want to move the miller pole by using a more inductive cap (honestly probably a non-issue), and polystyrene as a dielectric is less good at RF decoupling.. I did replace the ones that were there with NP0 type ceramics. I'll experiment with silvered mica and polystyrene perhaps.
All:
I find it interesting nobody has said that semiconductor components contribute to this effect, except perhaps through an aging process.
Thanks for these sober responses. You're right about orthogonality—not the right word.
1. Do you concur that carbon resistors sound less grainy than film? There are many others who think this is bogus, but I'm willing to entertain it until I hear it myself.
2. You say balanced-differential is "inherently unstable", which superficially doesn't make sense to me otherwise the amp wouldn't settle. Can you point me to a technical reference that clarifies this? Thanks!
Analog_SA:
I have not experimented with swapping ceramic miller caps for polystyrene because I don't want to move the miller pole by using a more inductive cap (honestly probably a non-issue), and polystyrene as a dielectric is less good at RF decoupling.. I did replace the ones that were there with NP0 type ceramics. I'll experiment with silvered mica and polystyrene perhaps.
All:
I find it interesting nobody has said that semiconductor components contribute to this effect, except perhaps through an aging process.
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In chat rooms such as internet forums, it's impossible for readers to know your personal experiences. It only applies to you. That is unless you have something that's objective and sharable online such as measurements.
Do not know about violins, .... but let's take a more popular example:
"Fleetwood Mac - Tango in the Night".
For my ears, this CD is recorded in a somewhat intriguing way. Skewed towards the high side. On some systems, it makes your ears bleed, from the amount of high frequency content. Then, on other systems, it seems to be quite enjoying. I tend to use this one to test general "smoothness" of a DAC.
One other favorite of mine is the "Keith Jarrett - Concert in Koln", and specifically Part I. There you have a piano.
Not to mention some stuff from Led Zeppelin ...
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I have searched for more information to understand (or not) 😀 the term "grainy" in audio .......
At my age, my treble hearing does not exceed 15,000 hertz, is that why I do not perceive it or is it that my cabinets are fantastic ? 😱
what is grain??????? | Headphone Reviews and Discussion - Head-Fi.org
At my age, my treble hearing does not exceed 15,000 hertz, is that why I do not perceive it or is it that my cabinets are fantastic ? 😱
what is grain??????? | Headphone Reviews and Discussion - Head-Fi.org
Thank you, now I realize, then the grain is that "transparency, presence" that I hear in my tube amplifier and not in the AVR (SS - 5.1) 🙂
"Grainy" ... as in sand on a beach. Instead of "smooth".
That is how I understand it. Harsh to the ears.
Sometimes probably mixed up with the "Wow!" effect, after a very brief listening period, of say 5 minutes, when visiting various exposition booths on an Audio Trade Fair. During a short period of exposure, at first glance such systems may give the impression of "Extra Air", and "Lots of Micro-Plankton Detail". But after a slightly longer period of listening, it may turn out that what is being experienced is not "Extraordinary Detail" but simply harsh sound, that tires your ears very quickly.
That is how I 'feel' it.
Grainy is similar to quantizing distortion (quantizing noise), but not exactly the same. If you ever hear it you will know because the word 'grain' seems to be the best fit, no other word seems to fit better. A very fine grain roughness. Could be the sound of small crossover distortion when filter caps can't supply current fast enough to keep voltage stabilized during a transient. It does seem to be a type of distortion and not uncorrelated noise. As mentioned before, sometimes adding film bypass caps helps.
When I added 0.10uf bypass caps on my 1st order tweets it took grain and turned it into air (as in vocal breath) I suppose bypass caps in amp design would do the same?
That's true. Welcome to the internet (where great information is free but mixed with BS)! IT people know about this nature of the internet and develop a trusted validation method.
Transistors/opamps do not age. They have maximum ratings that when surpassed may lead to degradation of performance. Transistor performance is related with the surrounding circuit. When it 'needs' 700mv between base and emitter then the surrounding circuit must be able to fulfill that.
If transistors are not popular as a component that cause grain, that is probably because almost all transistor and its surroundings cause grain so nobody notice.
It would be intersting to use a noise generator and sum the input signal with different levels of noise to see if the effect is of "graininess" can be replicated. One could bandwidth limit the noise source to simulate popcorn noise. One could put some clocking noise on the supply rails and see if this has an effect
Transistors do age -- because of heat which can cause failure, and the types of plastic and plasticizers used to encase them which break down over time due to exposure to heat and oxygen. If you want to know why your HP403 RMS voltmeter or Sencore SG165 analyzer are shot -- it's the transistors.
They're certainly a lot better than when I started out -- you had to use an alligator clip on each leg when you soldered them up!
Transistors do age -- because of heat which can cause failure, and the types of plastic and plasticizers used to encase them which break down over time due to exposure to heat and oxygen. If you want to know why your HP403 RMS voltmeter or Sencore SG165 analyzer are shot -- it's the transistors.
They're certainly a lot better than when I started out -- you had to use an alligator clip on each leg when you soldered them up!
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I would also expect that, after 40 years, some dopants diffuse.
If transistors don’t have a sound, why do people like Nelson Pass hoard particular types of transistors? Is it only for their IV characteristic curves, or is there more to it?
If transistors don’t have a sound, why do people like Nelson Pass hoard particular types of transistors? Is it only for their IV characteristic curves, or is there more to it?
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That is the exact description of what I always knew in these two variants of acoustic cabinets:
A) sound that tires the ears, tired after a prolonged period of hearing, although they sound more shocking.
B) Sound that does not fatigue even in prolonged listening sessions, and they sound more natural.
I attribute this purely to the acoustic cabinet, and I do not share that can be attributable to the electronic components of the amplifier, or resistors, capacitors.
In the acoustic cabinets the quality of the components are important and quite audible, I don't see it that way in the components of an amplifier.
If you have a circuit designed with a specific transistor, it must be replaced exactly by another of the same characteristics, Hfe, bandwidth, switching speed, etc. Perhaps the replacement or the bad choice of it causes that grainy sound, I do not dare to assure it however because I have no audible or measurable evidence of this phenomenon ...
Only my point of view, which may be delayed given that the electronic components have advanced a lot in their development and construction even if they are simple resistors or capacitors. But, a capacitor in parallel with the electrolytics of the PSU are not in the signal path, they are placed there to prevent the capture of radio frequencies that are outside the audible range of the audio.
But I can be " urinating out of the jar", as we say here ....😀