Hi,
Going back to Square One.
".. What are the reasons to not be considering building 3-way active speakers over purchasing 2-3x priced 3-way Passive speakers .."
Simple answer: it is not possible.
You have to use the money you save by building it yourself to buy dsp and amps. You never get a speaker like one thats sold for 2x or 3x the money.
Just look at the Paradigm Premier 800F. This speaker is sold in Europe at about 1400€. This means making it costs about 50%, the other 50% is profit, profit for the salesmen, development costs, etc.
700€ for the hardware. You get 4 drivers, a box and a crossover. Simplyfied: each of these 6 parts costs the same: 115€
So you take 4 times 115 € to buy 4 drivers. Add 255 € for the DSP. Add 4 times 80€ for some good class-d amp, No 10€ china cheaps. Add 100€ for a good power supply. Add another 115€ for the wood and paint to build a nice cabinet.
Wait a minute ! This is about 1250 €. Remember, the Premier 800F is sold for 1400€ !
Or you can cut down the costs for the drivers to 60€ each and use the cheap china dsp and amps. Maybe you will meat the cost limit. But will you get the sound quality ?
My two cents.
Klaus
Going back to Square One.
".. What are the reasons to not be considering building 3-way active speakers over purchasing 2-3x priced 3-way Passive speakers .."
Simple answer: it is not possible.
You have to use the money you save by building it yourself to buy dsp and amps. You never get a speaker like one thats sold for 2x or 3x the money.
Just look at the Paradigm Premier 800F. This speaker is sold in Europe at about 1400€. This means making it costs about 50%, the other 50% is profit, profit for the salesmen, development costs, etc.
700€ for the hardware. You get 4 drivers, a box and a crossover. Simplyfied: each of these 6 parts costs the same: 115€
So you take 4 times 115 € to buy 4 drivers. Add 255 € for the DSP. Add 4 times 80€ for some good class-d amp, No 10€ china cheaps. Add 100€ for a good power supply. Add another 115€ for the wood and paint to build a nice cabinet.
Wait a minute ! This is about 1250 €. Remember, the Premier 800F is sold for 1400€ !
Or you can cut down the costs for the drivers to 60€ each and use the cheap china dsp and amps. Maybe you will meat the cost limit. But will you get the sound quality ?
My two cents.
Klaus
You mentioned keeping this system yet to be built for about maybe a decade. This tells me that you should not overthink and overspend on parts concerning the project. I would advise to pick yourself a factory built loudspeakers (Paradigm mentioned) and ask for advice if there was a better sounding kit of similar specs for half of price which you may fancy better.
The route of designing yourself a loudspeaker means a longer period of time is to be spent on learning how to and then afterwards enjoying the fruits of your labor. This is acceptable to some, not to all, anyway.
Active systems have their advantages, so do passive ones, and you should carefully weigh costs and potential issues concerning these.
Yeah MiniDSP 2x4 HD is Fine I guess. I think the issue you are speaking of is with MiniDSP 2x4. So no problem I was going for HD version anyways. As it is said to have very low THD for what it matters.
My 2c...from the perspective of an active DSP multiway builder,
and one who is more concerned with audio quality than just about all other concerns put together
First, setting aside active vs passive for a moment......
Build vs buy.
One requirement for building that often seems to be glossed over, is the ability to make and understand good measurements. It's harder than it appears.
I'd say the odds of making a successful DIY increase in direct proportion to the ability to make and understand good measurements.
(But of course i would say that, as i'm a measurement type guy 🙂
So when weighing tradeoffs, factor in learning to use measurement software, like REW, if you haven't already.
Along with a USB soundcard and a measurement mic, or go with a UMIK mic, although most folks eventually grow out of a UMIK as they get better with measurements.
As far as DIY active vs DIY passive...... Ime/imo, passive is very complex compared to DSP active.
With DSP active, it is easy to first EQ each driver individually, along with setting polarities, levels, and delays; and then add xovers for best response.
With all the adjustments having simple ease, high precision, and continous variability.
Well, the idea of having to juggle all those tuning functions together first in XSIM or VCAD or any other favorite simulator, ......and then choose a set of passive components to see how it all measures, ....that then require new component substitutions to optimize.....and again, and again....
vs being able to twist knobs on a DSP, and simply measure / make adjustments in real time......and make easy experimental changes....
All I can say is YIKES !!!
I'll also say that the idea that passive can equal the sound quality of multi-way active, is predominantly wishful fantasy. Plain and simple.
and one who is more concerned with audio quality than just about all other concerns put together
First, setting aside active vs passive for a moment......
Build vs buy.
One requirement for building that often seems to be glossed over, is the ability to make and understand good measurements. It's harder than it appears.
I'd say the odds of making a successful DIY increase in direct proportion to the ability to make and understand good measurements.
(But of course i would say that, as i'm a measurement type guy 🙂
So when weighing tradeoffs, factor in learning to use measurement software, like REW, if you haven't already.
Along with a USB soundcard and a measurement mic, or go with a UMIK mic, although most folks eventually grow out of a UMIK as they get better with measurements.
As far as DIY active vs DIY passive...... Ime/imo, passive is very complex compared to DSP active.
With DSP active, it is easy to first EQ each driver individually, along with setting polarities, levels, and delays; and then add xovers for best response.
With all the adjustments having simple ease, high precision, and continous variability.
Well, the idea of having to juggle all those tuning functions together first in XSIM or VCAD or any other favorite simulator, ......and then choose a set of passive components to see how it all measures, ....that then require new component substitutions to optimize.....and again, and again....
vs being able to twist knobs on a DSP, and simply measure / make adjustments in real time......and make easy experimental changes....
All I can say is YIKES !!!
I'll also say that the idea that passive can equal the sound quality of multi-way active, is predominantly wishful fantasy. Plain and simple.
For anyone claiming that store bought speakers should be of good quality/value, look at for instance videos from Danny at GR-research (yes I know he's making really absurd claims as well, please look beyond that for a short while).
It's almost more difficult to make a cabinet of the low quality that some high end brands do. Add to that really cheap parts for the crossover.
Now you probably have the same problem with the amplifier.
Meanwhile you can get some of the best amplifiers made (no matter the cost) with DSP on a plate from Hypex, where you can eliminate all the components in the signal chain (volume, tone, some cables, crossover etc etc).
Even cheaper Chinese amplifier look pretty good compared to high-end stuff from not that long ago.
If you're going for the ultra cheap or expensive then I guess it would be difficult to compete with the store bought, but outside of those extremes I can't see it even being a contest (probably even with passive DIY from someone knowledgeable).
It's almost more difficult to make a cabinet of the low quality that some high end brands do. Add to that really cheap parts for the crossover.
Now you probably have the same problem with the amplifier.
Meanwhile you can get some of the best amplifiers made (no matter the cost) with DSP on a plate from Hypex, where you can eliminate all the components in the signal chain (volume, tone, some cables, crossover etc etc).
Even cheaper Chinese amplifier look pretty good compared to high-end stuff from not that long ago.
If you're going for the ultra cheap or expensive then I guess it would be difficult to compete with the store bought, but outside of those extremes I can't see it even being a contest (probably even with passive DIY from someone knowledgeable).
Okay will put up a list of components I plan to use just to check the where the price ends up compared to what Paradigm Premier 800F costs here. I will give you the prices I am getting components for instead of International pricing like I did above as that is kinda inaccurate. Because Pradigm Premier 800F is INR2,32,000($2,990) so yeah that is expensive.
Well I tried. You would be able to use it for a 2 way but that is going to involve some serious waveguides and a large midwoofer to control the directivity well enough to get close to a 3 way and even then the midrange quality might be compromised a bit along with some bass extension. Will save on some amp channels as well so perhaps worth considering if the size is OK.
How about a software dsp like EQ APO? It's much more flexible than a hardware MiniDSP, and it's freeware! How about soldering the amps self, instead of buying expensive plate-amps?
Dear Vineet,
A wise strategy would be to have 3-way (active / passive) only for the LCR speakers while passive 2-way would easily suffice for the surround channels, even in large cinema-sized rooms. This would also save you some money that may be used for other purposes like multiple sub-woofers, room treatment etc.
Coming to the classic build vs. buy problem, I would recommend building only if you're knowledgeable enough to do so, as there's no guarantee that the result would rival your favourite consumer speakers, especially if you're a first timer. However, if you choose to buy, I suggest buying pro-audio gear (and not consumer Hi-Fi), so as to ensure that your money would be well spent.
And, before picking any speakers to buy / designs to build, it may be necessary to look at a few more things such as room type, size, shape and volume, listening distance, SPL levels, screen size etc. so that fewer mistakes are made along the way.
The real point is that if you have no experience in speaker design, you also need measurement equipment. It doesn't cost an arm and a leg anymore, but it is not free. You need to learn how to perform measurements and to understand the outcome. You need to carefully choose drivers, to choose a bass alignment, to design the box. The whole idea that on the first try you end up with a quality comparable to a commercial speaker costing the double is pretty foolish, you can also fail totally. And you have spent lot of time doing it, but maybe in the process you will also learn something for a next try.
IMHO if you want to save money with DIY then you need to find a reputable design and build it. If you want to design, consider this an hobby and be prepared to spend time and money, I mean spending more money than a comparable commercial speaker. The other route to saving money is to buy a second-hand speaker.
A furniture maker doesn't necessarily make good speaker cabs. You need to provide him a good cab design tailored to the specific needs. You need experience also on this.
Ralf
Obviously would start with 2-way. If that works out will turn it into 3-way by adding center channel. Only after that will go for all other speakers.
Yes Will have to put in a lot of work into it. I know and understand that. But as long as I can get good results I am ready to do it.
You don't have any assurance of a good result on the first try...
I would say size, measurement, implementation and usability.
When you buy a finished passive speaker. You simply hook it up to your amplifier and turn up the volume + some source = music.
Actives and passives, have exactly the same challenges, when it comes to the acoustics, shape of cabinets and basic rules of design. No filter, active or passive, can change the laws of dispersion in a given size of speaker driver - that's just beaming as a result of wavelength and driver size. If it's done badly in one speaker... it's the same in another. Which means that there are universal rules and specific ones.
In an active system - the alteration of the signal - both EQ and filters, are done entirely in the digital domain. Which "removes" the electronic aspect of what you have in between the amplifier and driver, in a passive system.
The passive system is a "power" filter, since it sits in between the amplifier and drivers. So it suddenly has to sustain larger signals and can potentially change with load and with the type of filter and EQ you wish.
So if you design and build a loudspeaker, that only works its best, if used with steep filters and lots of EQ - then an active system can most likely achieve the best result, since the passive filter seems to often sounds its best, when kept simple. But there is no ultimate solution, and so very many considerations have to be taken into account, before anyone can properly judge what is best in a specific situation.
I simply decided, that I want it active. It was a choice - to limit the total amount of choices I had to make, to actually end up with a final product.
When it's active, you have to decide whether the amplifier should be built in or stand next to the speaker or even be hidden behind a furniture, like I do. I build 2 boxes to contain a 3 way amplifier DIY kit, and then combine it with a DSP-pre-amp. I use a complete Groundsound system, which can sadly not be bought anymore - people want it cheap, small, easy and with FIR - which I still haven't found the real use for... and I tried.... maybe I'm simply not smart enough 🤓
But I love my GS system.... especially because It solved the hiss/noise issue 10-15 years ago, that many have had problems with in active designs. Still today, quite a few complain about a little hiss from the tweeter - which is a very real annoyance, when not taken care of - especially in a quiet home setting, with sensitive drivers.
I have heard very nice results from a 3 way Hypex Fusion plate amp. It's like 900 grams and the size of 1/3 of a shoebox or something. And I believe they come with a kit, so that you can control it directly with a remote - so no pre-amp is needed. This makes for a very clean system, compared to mine, which in return is very flexible - which I designed it to be, when I build many different speakers, and visit people with my system.
The Fusion amp kit, can be seen in very good DIY designs, like these:
https://heissmann-acoustics.de/en/
A friend of mine has a very nice system, with big Mcintosh amplifiers and well designed JM-lab Alto Utopia BE. I measured them compared to mine, which are homemade with SB26ADC(Augerpro waveguide), 5" Texreme and 2x SB23NRX. He uses 2 subs and I use 4. But mostly we both agree that we both have a very good and well sounding system.
Bottom line is - he just turns it on and plays. I had to fiddle for years, to understand what I was doing. I had to push him a bit, to add the subwoofers though. Because without EQ and subs... .we could not even properly hear the quality of the midrange and tweeter. So he's actually a happy multi-sub guy with a DSP in his sound-chain now - even with his record player too 😀
As others point out. You can save a few bucks here and there. But you should really do it for the fun, learning experience and to put a personal touch on the total system..... not to save money or time. Because others, have already made lots of the hard work, which is needed to really make it sound good.
Remember - a wrongly designed cabinet, with badly places drivers, of the wrong size, shape and type - can totally ruin the end result, even before you even had the chance to do dial in any type of filter - or even made the first successful, reliable and genuine measurement - which you can actually trust, and does not pull you into circles of confusion.
Not trying to discourage you in any way. But there's no reason to sugarcoat it either 😉
I don't know if you have any skills in woodwork, filter construction, acoustical understanding or technical knowledge in electronics? That would be a good place to start, so that we can guide you best possibly 😊
I was looking at something like TPA3255EVM and nothing expensive so I think I will implement it into the enclosure. I do have long experience with Electronics and Software's etc. but Speakers and specifically crossovers is what I am trying to mess as less as possible with. So for me to go Passive was no option. But active seems fine. As the Electronic stuff on the basic layout side I can easily handle no issues. The Software gonna be a bit of learning curve but am a fast learner. The Enclosure design is what will take good time. But will go to and forth with it till I come to a satisfactory result. And yes will be down here throughout most of the process if and when I take it on.
Typically, the cost for the components in a commercially produced speaker is only about 10% of the retail price. A DIYer can buy those same components for about 20% of the retail price.
Mini DSP 2x4 HD - INR18,000
TPA3255EVM - INR14,000 x 2 = INR28,000
SB Acoustics SB26CDC-C000-4 - INR5,600
SB Acoustics SB12MNRX2-25-4 - INR5,500
SB Acoustics SB20PFCR30-4 - INR3,800 x2 = INR7,600
Enclosure - INR4,000
Total: INR68,700
For Pair it will cost = INR1,37,400($1,770)
For Paradigm Premier 800F Pair - INR2,32,000($2,990)
That is a huge difference in cost. Isn't it.
But can I get the audio quality to be better than that.
TPA3255EVM - INR14,000 x 2 = INR28,000
SB Acoustics SB26CDC-C000-4 - INR5,600
SB Acoustics SB12MNRX2-25-4 - INR5,500
SB Acoustics SB20PFCR30-4 - INR3,800 x2 = INR7,600
Enclosure - INR4,000
Total: INR68,700
For Pair it will cost = INR1,37,400($1,770)
For Paradigm Premier 800F Pair - INR2,32,000($2,990)
That is a huge difference in cost. Isn't it.
But can I get the audio quality to be better than that.
I will try and find cheaper alternative for the AMP module if any. But even with that expensive AMP it still is crazy cutoff in price. Almost half the price.
If this sentence is a demonstration of the current level of understanding, do yourself a favor and go buy some second hand speakers.
You're not going to be making anything worthwhile any time soon. Use the used speakers to pass the time spend studying and learning.
Buy some measurement gear and learn to measure (measure the second hand speakers first).
Meanwhile learn to use simulation tools like Vituixcad, learn what it takes to use it as a viable tool, the time spend on learning measurements will come in handy.
If you get the hang of that, you can move on to trying to design your first 2 way speaker. A 2 way speaker isn't a left and a right speaker, it often is a 6.5" woofer
with a 1" tweeter or a variation there off with different sized drivers within one enclosure. If the 2 way project succeeded, making a 3 way comes next.
A three way does not involve a center channel. It is a speaker that has 3 different drivers, each doing a specific part. Like: woofer, mid, tweeter.
There's also 2.5 ways 3.5 ways and 4 and 5 way speakers. Still talking about how a (single) speaker is constructed, not the number of speakers in total.
You'll need to study what crossovers do, as most beginners that dream of building an active speaker think they can simply select the crossover type from a drop
down menu and be in business. Not really how it works. The acoustical output of your driver needs to follow the slope that has a specific name, like Linkwitz Riley.
So it isn't as simple as selecting that in a crossover app or hooking up a crossover that has that name, you need to measure the output to make sure that follows
the slope of the crossover you want to use. There are tricks one can use with active, but you'd still have to measure what you've got first.
By now I'm guessing that you get a little insight of the complexity, even if you're going with an active setup. Many things can go wrong. Usually the hard part is:
You'll get exactly what you asked the active components to do. But it isn't what you should have chosen. Learning what to want and why is the key to success.
It takes time, but it's a very cute hobby. Did I say it takes time? Do you envision that it will take you quite a while to reach a level that can get you even near
the quality of a commercial product? Maybe reserve some more time if you really want to be able to surpass it.
The MiniDSP will do exactly what you tell it to do. But you need to learn a whole lot before you have a clue of what it should do.
Yo man I dint mean 2-way in the sense of Tweeter + Woofer. I meant it in the way Left-Right setup. Then move onto 3-way Left-Center-Right setup.
Speaker itself gonna be 3-way Tweeter+Midrange+Woofer.