I couldn't be happier with my MTMs. They are the best speakers I've ever had, and among the best I've ever heard, comparing favorably to Harbeth M30, Focal Scala Utopia, and a host of others. If you like to listen at moderate levels (approx. 75db with higher peaks), and your space isn't immense, they are incredible.
I drive mine with a 60w MOSFET amp and they love it. They also sound great with tubes. All depends on what you prefer.
I drive mine with a 60w MOSFET amp and they love it. They also sound great with tubes. All depends on what you prefer.
This is challenging.
For bass, I'm looking to try a box with some kind of BLH or MLTL tuning, but it's high risk. I usually like the tight snappy bass from sealed enclosures, and hate the boomy one-note overhang from many reflex boxes. So there.
I've had good results raising the output impedance outside of the bass region, for the CHP-90 and a couple of other drivers. This can be as simple as padding the speaker sensitivity down with a resistor in series, say, 10 or 22 ohm, but the bass should be well damped to start with to minimise peaks. A more complicated option could be to develop a custom amplifier that integrates better with coil-and-magnet based speakers at high frequencies.
One technical approach could be to make the open loop gain roll-off early, so that the output impedance starts getting meaningfully higher above, say, 1kHz. If the output impedance (near a problematic break-up mode) is equivalent to at least tens of ohms in series, it can really extend the usable upper range of a woofer. But it kills the marketing specs: If the amplifier is measured with an 8 ohm resistor as a fake speaker load, distortion increases significantly at high frequencies. Of course it's nonsense because the whole point of the exercise is for the speaker to sound better, not to theorise about what the amplifier might sound like if an 8 ohm resistor could be heard.
All that said, I'm very happy with the CHP-90. Its top end could never match the CHN-50, but it's not missing much, and adding a super-tweeter would just break things. I also have my eye on the Fostex FE126NV2 as a possibly similar alternative. The 3g cone is even lighter, which could be good or bad, and the ribbed cloth surround appeals to me.
Full range/ wideband is for fun and simplicity.
Drawback is High frequency directionality with large drivers, but better bass.
Small drivers have slightly better directionality, but poor bass.
Most work arounds is to assist a smaller wideband driver with a woofer.
Acceptable high end.
Another workaround is just a 2 way.
Large enough driver for bass and good high end with a tweeter.
So reaching full circle, they are for fun
And easier to stick to the original concept.
A speaker, a box, 2 wires and done
Top end will never beat a tweeter, even cheap silks will beat a small driver.
Probably fun to play around with a 8" or 6.5" wideband
and can add a tweeter later.
Which will lead to playing with large tweeters to cross low.
If you want to play with smaller tweeters then start with
3 to 4" wideband. Which will also lead to a typical 3 way for bass.
Drawback is High frequency directionality with large drivers, but better bass.
Small drivers have slightly better directionality, but poor bass.
Most work arounds is to assist a smaller wideband driver with a woofer.
Acceptable high end.
Another workaround is just a 2 way.
Large enough driver for bass and good high end with a tweeter.
So reaching full circle, they are for fun
And easier to stick to the original concept.
A speaker, a box, 2 wires and done
Top end will never beat a tweeter, even cheap silks will beat a small driver.
Probably fun to play around with a 8" or 6.5" wideband
and can add a tweeter later.
Which will lead to playing with large tweeters to cross low.
If you want to play with smaller tweeters then start with
3 to 4" wideband. Which will also lead to a typical 3 way for bass.
Fun and simplicity is one thing, but there is something to be said for the quality of the off-axis / ambient sound, especially if you're up and about. At least that is what I've found.
The tonal colour of reflected sound is more coherent. Narrower dispersion at HF produces a smaller 'mess' of reflections from the ceiling and walls mixing with the direct sound. And the lack of a crossover region means that reflections have a more consistent tonal colour. The reflected sound from a two-way system that I built is subjectively far more obtrusive. A comprehensive fix would be to cover the walls and ceiling with wavy foam to tame those reflections, but it's not an option. Adding a wave-guide to the tweeter would also go full circle in reducing the ±60° spray of high frequencies.
Around 2.5kHz the 2-way system 'steps' from a hard 7" woofer to a hard 50mm dome. Not the worst build decision I ever made, but I like the idea of FR drivers smoothly transitioning between pushing the whole cone or just the dust cap, depending on frequency.
The tonal colour of reflected sound is more coherent. Narrower dispersion at HF produces a smaller 'mess' of reflections from the ceiling and walls mixing with the direct sound. And the lack of a crossover region means that reflections have a more consistent tonal colour. The reflected sound from a two-way system that I built is subjectively far more obtrusive. A comprehensive fix would be to cover the walls and ceiling with wavy foam to tame those reflections, but it's not an option. Adding a wave-guide to the tweeter would also go full circle in reducing the ±60° spray of high frequencies.
Around 2.5kHz the 2-way system 'steps' from a hard 7" woofer to a hard 50mm dome. Not the worst build decision I ever made, but I like the idea of FR drivers smoothly transitioning between pushing the whole cone or just the dust cap, depending on frequency.
Contrary to others here, highs are actually one of the main reasons I insist on FR drivers.
The oft mentioned coherency with the rest of the spectrum is one.
But the highs taken on their own are very pleasant, if directional.
Paper is a great driver material, for tweeters too. But aluminum drivers have great highs also, if with a distinct character.
Some of Marks Audios drivers achieve almost as good spread of the highs as a large tweeter.
The oft mentioned coherency with the rest of the spectrum is one.
But the highs taken on their own are very pleasant, if directional.
Paper is a great driver material, for tweeters too. But aluminum drivers have great highs also, if with a distinct character.
Some of Marks Audios drivers achieve almost as good spread of the highs as a large tweeter.
For me fullrange drivers are mainly good for nearfield listening, where the dispertion is not that important (you sit close in front of it) and volume is low. My nearfield speakers on my desk are Mark Audio Alpair 10.3 based reflexes and they do a better job than any 2 way bookshelf speaker i had in that positions (inclusive some high rated studio monitors) because of the true point source and consistant phase.
But for going loud or cover a big space, fullrange are not that suited. There a 2 or more way with a waveguided/Horn tweeter is way better when executed right. The summing of the drivers happens better because in most cases you are sitting/standing further away to listen. They also go louder cleaner because the drivers are used in their neutral frequency band and hve no ringing resonances there.
And in between version is the WAW, fit for most reasonable living rooms, where you use a smaller fullrange driver as midtop and a seperate woofer crossed way lower than you would do with a tweeter, somewhere between 200 and 500Hz (altough i prefer not higher than 300Hz) say most. Be relieving the fullrange driver from bass duiies, they will sound clenaer (lower distortion) and go louder. I use one for the moment in my small living room, and it works very well. But the same space could also be fit for a woofer/tweeter 2 way floorstander also. I would not use that waw in spaces that are bigger than 50m² as they won't be able to go loud enough without pushing the drivers into distortion. But i do use those to listen to very complex classical and jazz music, and bass heavy dub and similar styles on reasonable low volume (70-80dB) and they do that very well in my case. My listening room (aka salon) is 23m² large
My favorite fullrange drivers are those 4-6" drivers from Mark Audio, especially the Alpair 10.3 (NLA). But older type can also be fun. I use a pair of big Fane Sovereign 12-250TC's in big cabinets as garden speakers and they do an exellent job. It's not fit for cirtical listening, but to have music in my garden while working or enjoying there they are perfect. They would probally also be good workshop speakers (go relative loud on low power) but miss the finesse of smaller speakers. Most fullrange drivers of that size are also very beaming, but that Fane has surprisingly good directivity for it's size (probally the wizzers help a lot for that). But it's far from neutral in frequency or constant directive. You won't find that with fullrange drivers.
So if they are for you, depends on your goal. They are not the solution to all problems, they are a niche that do some things very well and others not at all. Like all speakers they are compromise, not perfect (that does not exist) but very good at some things that multiway speakers can not do.
But for going loud or cover a big space, fullrange are not that suited. There a 2 or more way with a waveguided/Horn tweeter is way better when executed right. The summing of the drivers happens better because in most cases you are sitting/standing further away to listen. They also go louder cleaner because the drivers are used in their neutral frequency band and hve no ringing resonances there.
And in between version is the WAW, fit for most reasonable living rooms, where you use a smaller fullrange driver as midtop and a seperate woofer crossed way lower than you would do with a tweeter, somewhere between 200 and 500Hz (altough i prefer not higher than 300Hz) say most. Be relieving the fullrange driver from bass duiies, they will sound clenaer (lower distortion) and go louder. I use one for the moment in my small living room, and it works very well. But the same space could also be fit for a woofer/tweeter 2 way floorstander also. I would not use that waw in spaces that are bigger than 50m² as they won't be able to go loud enough without pushing the drivers into distortion. But i do use those to listen to very complex classical and jazz music, and bass heavy dub and similar styles on reasonable low volume (70-80dB) and they do that very well in my case. My listening room (aka salon) is 23m² large
My favorite fullrange drivers are those 4-6" drivers from Mark Audio, especially the Alpair 10.3 (NLA). But older type can also be fun. I use a pair of big Fane Sovereign 12-250TC's in big cabinets as garden speakers and they do an exellent job. It's not fit for cirtical listening, but to have music in my garden while working or enjoying there they are perfect. They would probally also be good workshop speakers (go relative loud on low power) but miss the finesse of smaller speakers. Most fullrange drivers of that size are also very beaming, but that Fane has surprisingly good directivity for it's size (probally the wizzers help a lot for that). But it's far from neutral in frequency or constant directive. You won't find that with fullrange drivers.
So if they are for you, depends on your goal. They are not the solution to all problems, they are a niche that do some things very well and others not at all. Like all speakers they are compromise, not perfect (that does not exist) but very good at some things that multiway speakers can not do.
Most headphones are full range. Just make some big headphones. 😏
Edit: I had a roommate in college that would turn the speakers right at his ears. They were probably about 6" from his ears, like disconnected ear phones or super near field.
Edit: I had a roommate in college that would turn the speakers right at his ears. They were probably about 6" from his ears, like disconnected ear phones or super near field.
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Yeah, 1g moving mass Vs whatever >20g membrane.
One pointing directly at the eardrum, the other applying power in ambient with the inevitable losses.
One pointing directly at the eardrum, the other applying power in ambient with the inevitable losses.
Shades of the old binaural setups from the '30s onwards; we sometimes saw in-firing speaker setups under those conditions; it had a [very minor] quasi-revival around the time of quad. Froese's first studio album had a couple of tracks recorded & mixed using the kunstkopf artificial heads pioneered by Bell & latterly Philips.
I think loud speakers are more like midi-phones, or if I stick with Greek mesophones.
Maybe multi-way loudspeakers should be called polyphones?
There are lots of ways to get around that.
Something like the Bose 901 or other 50s - 80s omni designs are examples.
Line arrays are another.
Front horns are another, with the Voigt horn being the canonical example.
I think it's possible to cross-over a 3-4" fullrange/wideband to a 8-10" (sub)woofer and get a system that falls in the full range area. Like the systems in the WAW thread. I think they would make great bookshelf speakers or even monitors.
FWIW, at the moment, due to circumstances, I listen to a unfiltered, uncorrected full range speaker in a small closed cabinet. I bought the chassis looong time ago, it is not for sale anymore. It's a 6.5" Fostex/ACR FE164 that I bought to go FR (at that time this concept regained traction, due to the interest in Lowther speakers, which I could not afford at that time) and at first I made a (heavy!) concrete closed cabinet with the edges tapering off for it. Very nice. After that, I used it in a tractrix rectangular fronthorn (Bruce Edgar style) with a smaller mouth than the driver for some compression. I put the FE164 aside, when I discovered the BMS 4592ND CD, when they came on the market. From then on, my system evolved around those drivers.
For another room, I decided to build a small speaker with the FE164 again, this time with the top end augmented with a Fostex magnetostatic tweeter with the same 91dB sensitivity, filtered 1st order (only one series capacitor) at 8-9kHz for some air and better dispersion of the higher frequencies. I damped the wizzer cone with a little bit of longhair wool around the outer perimeter between the whizzer and cone. The cabinet is stuffed with real longhair wool.
The amp I use at the moment is a Sony AVR and the bass is served by a 80Hz filtered active Sony ported subwoofer from the 2000's. The "satellites" are not high passed and as such directly connected to the amp output without any intervening crossover components.
Because I migrated to another EU country, my inventory is still in storage including my big horn setup. To have some music in my small rented house (I will soon move to a much bigger house, where I will setup my big horn rig again) I put the FR speakers on simple target stands, leaning backwards to align the tweeter and FR driver and sticked them very close to the back wall. The sub is in a corner. Because the music is in the midrange, it's caracter is preserved in a musical way but still you have the air and slam with the tweeter and sub.
I must say, with good recordings, they really shine (to my enjoyment.. at lower volumes I do not miss my big horns, shame shame) and when recorded as such, f.e. a piano, it is right there in your room, very realistic with good sense of scale. The sound is seamless with correct tonal representation of f.e. saxophone. Dynamics are pretty adequate and can play +80 dB easily. Female voices, recorded well, are a dream. You can throw any music at it, whether it is reggae, dub, house or jazz, it plays it. As being point sources for the most important midband, they also image well. Unfortunately, I do not yet have any measurements but it sounds balanced and crisp as it is, so no real urge to try to improve it. An improvement would be the flush mounting of the tweeter and driver, and maybe better cabinet damping, but for the intent of just having something small around, I do not strive for perfection.
The room is very reverberant, but it does not really harm. The back and front walls are slanted about 10 degrees -so no real flutter echo's appear. If I had no other speakers or a critical wife, I could very well live with them. So my advice for OP is to at least consider the Fostex FR drivers currently available, and augment them with a supertweeter and active subwoofer. Hardly any filtering needed, to preserve the music in the wide midband. I agree it is not a strict one driver full range solution, but it does cope with the weaknesses of having only one driver.
For another room, I decided to build a small speaker with the FE164 again, this time with the top end augmented with a Fostex magnetostatic tweeter with the same 91dB sensitivity, filtered 1st order (only one series capacitor) at 8-9kHz for some air and better dispersion of the higher frequencies. I damped the wizzer cone with a little bit of longhair wool around the outer perimeter between the whizzer and cone. The cabinet is stuffed with real longhair wool.
The amp I use at the moment is a Sony AVR and the bass is served by a 80Hz filtered active Sony ported subwoofer from the 2000's. The "satellites" are not high passed and as such directly connected to the amp output without any intervening crossover components.
Because I migrated to another EU country, my inventory is still in storage including my big horn setup. To have some music in my small rented house (I will soon move to a much bigger house, where I will setup my big horn rig again) I put the FR speakers on simple target stands, leaning backwards to align the tweeter and FR driver and sticked them very close to the back wall. The sub is in a corner. Because the music is in the midrange, it's caracter is preserved in a musical way but still you have the air and slam with the tweeter and sub.
I must say, with good recordings, they really shine (to my enjoyment.. at lower volumes I do not miss my big horns, shame shame) and when recorded as such, f.e. a piano, it is right there in your room, very realistic with good sense of scale. The sound is seamless with correct tonal representation of f.e. saxophone. Dynamics are pretty adequate and can play +80 dB easily. Female voices, recorded well, are a dream. You can throw any music at it, whether it is reggae, dub, house or jazz, it plays it. As being point sources for the most important midband, they also image well. Unfortunately, I do not yet have any measurements but it sounds balanced and crisp as it is, so no real urge to try to improve it. An improvement would be the flush mounting of the tweeter and driver, and maybe better cabinet damping, but for the intent of just having something small around, I do not strive for perfection.
The room is very reverberant, but it does not really harm. The back and front walls are slanted about 10 degrees -so no real flutter echo's appear. If I had no other speakers or a critical wife, I could very well live with them. So my advice for OP is to at least consider the Fostex FR drivers currently available, and augment them with a supertweeter and active subwoofer. Hardly any filtering needed, to preserve the music in the wide midband. I agree it is not a strict one driver full range solution, but it does cope with the weaknesses of having only one driver.
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Yes indeed, Good results very possibly. Took it to a further extreme for fun with some low cost drivers. Try 2.5" wideband and 12" high Qts sealed woofer.
Center to Center ridiculous good at that point. was actually accused of not being designed correctly the =vertical looked to good to be true.
Rather large enclosure for sealed high Qts. Member Cannon Fodder tested the concept with a foam mockup. Nicknamed WD-BG ( White Dragon Big Girl)
All for fun with low cost drivers.
