Sonically, I have no doubt. Most SS are great, but I go back to the efficiency issue. It is darn hard to deal with a mid less efficient than the woofer in a passive system. Before you say "4 Ohm" I will not ever build a 4 Ohm speaker. I have designed too many amplifiers and if I had my preference, I would build 16 Ohm speakers. I have had some success with a Mark and with modifying a Fountek but not happy. The speaker March is selling, Purify woofer and a tweeter I never heard of, looks promising as a lower crossover than most with a 1 1/8 tweeter. The SB ring will cross a little lower than most domes and the new Peerless ceramic 1 1/8 may have promise. A 6 inch, like the ER18 , SB or Discovery drivers would be much happier crossing @ 1800 than 2500 where most tweeters are happier. Ignore the plots and roll-off. Designs trying to use the LF rolloff as part of the filter suffer from pushing the excursion too far. Test yourself, but I find about 1/2 X-max is where driver distortion skyrockets. Just like hot-rods. "Ain't no replacement for displacement"
So, who has the killer 3 inch dome with high enough efficiency for a 3 way?
What do you mean by "high enough efficiency for a 3 way"? Why would the number of drivers have anything to do with efficiency?
My limited experience from 3-ways is that I could get away with surprisingly low sensitivity on the mid. Mainly because of baffle-step for the woofer.
But also, depending on the XO-points and steepness, phase tracking etc, there is usually some small support in the mid from woofer and tweeter too, so I found I needed less mid sensitivity than I first expected.
But also, depending on the XO-points and steepness, phase tracking etc, there is usually some small support in the mid from woofer and tweeter too, so I found I needed less mid sensitivity than I first expected.
It helps to read carefully before buying the ScanSpeak Discovery D7608/9200-10 3".
They claim an 8 ohm impedance though it hits 8 ohms at 300 hz and 5K . Mostly 6 ohms within the usable range.
Maybe it hits 92DB between 1K and 2K.
Dispersion off axis can be a problem with midrange domes though I have to admit they can sound better than cones.
They claim an 8 ohm impedance though it hits 8 ohms at 300 hz and 5K . Mostly 6 ohms within the usable range.
Maybe it hits 92DB between 1K and 2K.
Dispersion off axis can be a problem with midrange domes though I have to admit they can sound better than cones.
Long time ago in the 90th Mr. K.H.Fink in his shop told me that the old Vifa driver is better without the inner grill. He demonstrated it practicaly how easy it can be removed. It was just glued on. Kids protection will be gone. Vaguely i remember that the felt on the back was also removed and the driver was filled with some sheep wool or sth similar.
Before someone asks: I have no idea if it realy will be better but but i'm very sure he knows what he's doing.
The older Vifa has gone through changes too. It used to be a felt-paper material before it was textile/silk. I was not aware the Vifa version even had the inner grille, as I thought that SS added it when they made the Discovery version. It has ALWAYS needed a chamber to be added, and had a rather narrow bandwidth of usable frequencies, IMO.
Well, a 3 inch midrange is not a full range driver. So it will be used with a woofer and a tweeter. That kind of suggests a three-way, or four is you add a sub.
On efficiency, if you have ever built a speaker you would know that a midrange of lower efficiency than the woofer means you have to PAD the woofer, usually not a great decision for an overall efficient and easy to drive system. Not an issue if you want to tri-amp and use all kinds of ugly electronics and have an insane budget. Small support as mentioned may be valid for shallow crossovers over a limited range. Again, not the best concept in my view.
If you cascade a high pass and low pass filter, you usually end up with voltage gain. The closer the corner frequencies are to each other the more “gain” you get. So at 2.83 volts you send more than 1 watt into the midrange, increasing the effective sensitivity. You get a dip in impedance through the midrange because there is no free lunch.
You can design this “bandpass gain“ out, but you have to go out of your way to do it. Usually you want some, because of the lower sensitivity of most small midranges. Depending on your crossover frequency baffle step can affect the mid as well as the woofer, so baffle step alone isn’t always the fix.
You can design this “bandpass gain“ out, but you have to go out of your way to do it. Usually you want some, because of the lower sensitivity of most small midranges. Depending on your crossover frequency baffle step can affect the mid as well as the woofer, so baffle step alone isn’t always the fix.
Yes, if I ever built a loudspeaker... Hmm, thinking about it, I have. Quite a few. Many!
However, what you wrote is not quite to the point. Firstly, most midrange drivers will have much higher efficiency than most woofers (simple physics). Secondly, there's the baffle step, which takes away another 6 dB from the woofer. This means that efficiency of a midrange in a three way system is usually not a concern. If you have ever built a loudspeaker, you would... no, let's not go there, ok?
However, my question was something else. I asked what you mean by the "efficiency of a three way speaker". Can you explain? How would efficiency be different with a two way or a four way? (hint: the overall efficiency of a loudspeaker is limited by its low-frequency extension and the size of the box.)
The days of 92 dB/w midranges are long gone. Todays offerings hover in the mid 80’s because they also design them for “bass”. That Vifa dome doesn’t really get to 92 at the low end of its range where you really want it to - and you end up designing a band pass network that tilts down. If you want anything over 90 (or much over 87) you end up buying a 6.5” or 8” pro driver. There are many good ones, but they‘re not a 4”, either.
When you’ve got a 4” thats only 85dB/W in half space, coming in at 200 or 300 Hz it’s got baffle step loss too. Not as much, but some. And it’s the smaller speaker boxes where you want full or almost the full 6dB. With the monkey coffins I build, 6dB baffle step sounds excessive.
When you’ve got a 4” thats only 85dB/W in half space, coming in at 200 or 300 Hz it’s got baffle step loss too. Not as much, but some. And it’s the smaller speaker boxes where you want full or almost the full 6dB. With the monkey coffins I build, 6dB baffle step sounds excessive.
Also I was heavily disappointed by the data of the so long highly hyped (over a year ...) Satori MD60N before it finally got released.
S.Linkwitz produced a nice spreadsheet to evaluate the attainable SPL in dB related to the Frequency, to SD and to Xmax.
https://linkwitzlab.com/spl_max1.xlsThe results will give a nice hint about how low and how loud you may go with a given driver.
Therefore, I compiled the relevant data of all previously mentionned drivers in this thread. Look at, look at ...
HiVi and Swan HiVi drop out due to lousy and/or none publised data. If a manufacturer is not able to publish data, then forget about it.
Ciare, Daiton and Satori seem rather suited for silentspeakers than for loudspeakers. Thanks, no, not really ...
Morel and Scan-Speak (D7608), Vifa (D75MX) and Volt are already better, but really do not excel in terms of volume displacement capacity. Negatively out of this bunch Volt does not provide any Q-related data and has the highest fres of this batch.
ATC, BliesMa, Peerless, ScanSpeak (10F) and Vifa (TC9F) finally seem to make a good job. Bliesma would be my favorite, it has an underhung coil and very decent overall parameters. The negative result for the volume displacement value of this Bliesma is a math artefact because of the underung voice coil. But this beryllium dome also comes along with a ridiculously high price at the sub-1k$-border. ATC seems unobtainium. ScanSpeak and Vifa are no domes. Peerless? Peerless seems interesting also.
So now ... what are the best options for a midrange dome driver ...
To my gusto Bliesma. Either the Bliesma beryllium driver in a cost-no-object project, or then it's more reasonably priced fabric or silk/fabric or Mg/Al dome sibling, which has not been mentionned in this thread before. Personally, I would hands down go for the Mg/Al M74A version if the dynamic measurements were ok. We will see. Maybe. As you now know, there has already been a disappointment in terms of hyped midrange domes ...
S.Linkwitz produced a nice spreadsheet to evaluate the attainable SPL in dB related to the Frequency, to SD and to Xmax.
https://linkwitzlab.com/spl_max1.xlsThe results will give a nice hint about how low and how loud you may go with a given driver.
Therefore, I compiled the relevant data of all previously mentionned drivers in this thread. Look at, look at ...
HiVi and Swan HiVi drop out due to lousy and/or none publised data. If a manufacturer is not able to publish data, then forget about it.
Ciare, Daiton and Satori seem rather suited for silentspeakers than for loudspeakers. Thanks, no, not really ...
Morel and Scan-Speak (D7608), Vifa (D75MX) and Volt are already better, but really do not excel in terms of volume displacement capacity. Negatively out of this bunch Volt does not provide any Q-related data and has the highest fres of this batch.
ATC, BliesMa, Peerless, ScanSpeak (10F) and Vifa (TC9F) finally seem to make a good job. Bliesma would be my favorite, it has an underhung coil and very decent overall parameters. The negative result for the volume displacement value of this Bliesma is a math artefact because of the underung voice coil. But this beryllium dome also comes along with a ridiculously high price at the sub-1k$-border. ATC seems unobtainium. ScanSpeak and Vifa are no domes. Peerless? Peerless seems interesting also.
So now ... what are the best options for a midrange dome driver ...
To my gusto Bliesma. Either the Bliesma beryllium driver in a cost-no-object project, or then it's more reasonably priced fabric or silk/fabric or Mg/Al dome sibling, which has not been mentionned in this thread before. Personally, I would hands down go for the Mg/Al M74A version if the dynamic measurements were ok. We will see. Maybe. As you now know, there has already been a disappointment in terms of hyped midrange domes ...
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Sure, mess with the Q, but my reason for a midrange is for a WIDE BW to get the crossovers out of the critical hearing range. Not a filler for crappy crossover notch because no attention to time and phase.