Best regardsSchmitz77,
I agree.
Good tubes, good parts, good amp; and good system design (amp, signal source, speakers, room, etc.).
Positive Synergy, or the system design is not good.
You are describing what I call peeling the layers off of the onion.
Outer layer first. At some point, there are diminishing returns that make such small changes to the sound, that many ears can not detect the change.
I am a fan of double blindfold testing, if possible, whenever there is a question of the validity of any change.
I agree.
Good tubes, good parts, good amp; and good system design (amp, signal source, speakers, room, etc.).
Positive Synergy, or the system design is not good.
You are describing what I call peeling the layers off of the onion.
Outer layer first. At some point, there are diminishing returns that make such small changes to the sound, that many ears can not detect the change.
I am a fan of double blindfold testing, if possible, whenever there is a question of the validity of any change.
Frederik Forsyth sums it up: "In matters of technical skill there are four levels - competent, very good, brilliant and a natural" (The fist of God).
The most important thing in audio is a superior power supply for max. dynamic and high resolution.
Not to build with the world best triode tube and use it in a just mediocre amp.
PSU is so much more important, that it becomes nearly irrelevant what tube is working at the output- it just has to fit the power needs of the speakers.
And it should be of good quality, with highly linear choosen workpoints. Anything else ranks secondary IMHO.
But if you want to impress people- use rare boutique parts only. Because of their magical sound!
........ unique ...... a breakthrough ........ new world of tubes discovered ..... never again anything else ..... music in the fast lane of the hifidelity life ...... yeah, that's it!
The most important thing in audio is a superior power supply for max. dynamic and high resolution.
Not to build with the world best triode tube and use it in a just mediocre amp.
PSU is so much more important, that it becomes nearly irrelevant what tube is working at the output- it just has to fit the power needs of the speakers.
And it should be of good quality, with highly linear choosen workpoints. Anything else ranks secondary IMHO.
But if you want to impress people- use rare boutique parts only. Because of their magical sound!
........ unique ...... a breakthrough ........ new world of tubes discovered ..... never again anything else ..... music in the fast lane of the hifidelity life ...... yeah, that's it!
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Never did double blindfolds, but what I find difficult is to start from scratch and develop a whole system without having a reference to compare.
The ear isn't a bad measurement, but sometimes it could take a while to realize that something is going in the wrong direction. But otherwise, who will use measurements only to be the last judge for good sound. The ultimate judge should be the individual listener.
At audio shows around the US, the companies who rent a room to show off their products, must have good equipment, from signal source, amp, and speakers. And the selection of equipment must be synergistic, even if the equipment is far from perfect.
It is very important to meet that criteria.
But what is Most Paramount about showing a system in a less than perfect rented room, is not the equipment . . .
it is the knowledge of how to take a less than perfect room, and be able to set the speakers in that room properly, perhaps with traps, hangings, or other items that make the sound of the system worth listening too.
Otherwise, walk to the next room.
Next.
When it comes to Audio Shows . . .
Excuses are nothing, if they are not signs of poor planning.
Do not judge a single piece of equipment that otherwise might shine in a different environment; it may fall short of your expectations, either because of the room, setup, or less than synergistic selection of the source, amp, and speakers.
It is very important to meet that criteria.
But what is Most Paramount about showing a system in a less than perfect rented room, is not the equipment . . .
it is the knowledge of how to take a less than perfect room, and be able to set the speakers in that room properly, perhaps with traps, hangings, or other items that make the sound of the system worth listening too.
Otherwise, walk to the next room.
Next.
When it comes to Audio Shows . . .
Excuses are nothing, if they are not signs of poor planning.
Do not judge a single piece of equipment that otherwise might shine in a different environment; it may fall short of your expectations, either because of the room, setup, or less than synergistic selection of the source, amp, and speakers.
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If the AC line was dirty, they had to do something against it.
Unfortunately, a real WE 300B tends to sound blurry in a mediocre amp and if there is the slightest mismatching to speakers or source. That couldn't be blamed the 300B for, but it often degrades its optimum performance. At last, its able to power out enough watt for medium efficiency speakers (8W) and thats why this tube is so much sought after. It can be combined with those speakers in the 80dB range and it produces some sounds, loud enough to entertain the audience in the living room and decorated with a certain frosting people like it, because thats what they love in a triode tube.
But this tube is able to sound much different in a superior amp and with high efficiency speakers in the 95 to 100 dB range. Unfortunately, too, people most often couldn't employ those speaker monsters at home because of the WAF. With those speakers, a 300B can impress and it did so in the auditoriums it once had to deliver the cinema sound. But were talking about big halls and venues, reinforced with sound by big horn systems. At home, small living rooms, corrupted with totally wrong speakers, integrated in an amp environment that uses this tube as the most attractive part of this amp (wow, what a stunning glow and two big bottles in one amp), its most often starving, like a wild animal in the zoo, robbed all of its natural habit and teritory. Damned to a life which isn't their inherent nature.
Unfortunately, a real WE 300B tends to sound blurry in a mediocre amp and if there is the slightest mismatching to speakers or source. That couldn't be blamed the 300B for, but it often degrades its optimum performance. At last, its able to power out enough watt for medium efficiency speakers (8W) and thats why this tube is so much sought after. It can be combined with those speakers in the 80dB range and it produces some sounds, loud enough to entertain the audience in the living room and decorated with a certain frosting people like it, because thats what they love in a triode tube.
But this tube is able to sound much different in a superior amp and with high efficiency speakers in the 95 to 100 dB range. Unfortunately, too, people most often couldn't employ those speaker monsters at home because of the WAF. With those speakers, a 300B can impress and it did so in the auditoriums it once had to deliver the cinema sound. But were talking about big halls and venues, reinforced with sound by big horn systems. At home, small living rooms, corrupted with totally wrong speakers, integrated in an amp environment that uses this tube as the most attractive part of this amp (wow, what a stunning glow and two big bottles in one amp), its most often starving, like a wild animal in the zoo, robbed all of its natural habit and teritory. Damned to a life which isn't their inherent nature.
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I can honestly imagine a trioded 6V6 beating out a 300B, so don’t sell yourself short.
Obviously you don't own an oil well in the backyards. A 300B most often will be used without benefit in sound, but for pure class A 8W triode output and prestigue. A 6V6 may beat it, with the right speaker combination. People pay too much attention for this single part of an amp. The same money invested in better speakers pays off much more. But people stick with their speakers and invest that money in cables, amps etc. The speakers run the show, folks. Not a single tube.
yep in 91 I do audio show ,not simple setup the speakers ,lucky we use biamp...
Tube sound is about the same subjective and individual taste as wines are for the connoisseur. Nobody would say that a Chateau Lafite-Rothschild has the same taste as a Chateau Giscours or any other great wine. Both are different characters of fine french wines.
And this applies to tubes in the same manner as it applies to all electron tubes and its individual sound. Thats the way it has to been seen. Only fools think that every tube sounds the same. You can't copy the sound of a Western Electric 300B, its unique. And that is not only because of its electric curves and distortion spectrums, but because of its chemistry used for manufacture of parts. Tube sound is greatly influenced by chemistry and minor influenced by its construction.
Its for a special reason, that WE did its own numbering system and no one else did manufacture those types like it was common with other popular tubes. But even among those, a Tele ECC83 sounds different to a Valvo or Siemens tube of the same type. They had their own types of tubes, did their own manufacture and if there were some other manufacturers that did replica 300B, they obviously had to sound different.
To put those prestigous and outstanding tubes in a middle class amp to work simply ruins its potential performance and its potential sound.
Thats the reason why it doesn't make much sense to use it in combination with a, lets say, lower class $800 china tube amp. 300B is a sport of the kings nowadays. Because were not talking just about amps here. A complete audio system that makes sense in combination with such a tube has a price tag in the $100.000 plus region. The tube is just a small minor part of the whole system.
And this applies to tubes in the same manner as it applies to all electron tubes and its individual sound. Thats the way it has to been seen. Only fools think that every tube sounds the same. You can't copy the sound of a Western Electric 300B, its unique. And that is not only because of its electric curves and distortion spectrums, but because of its chemistry used for manufacture of parts. Tube sound is greatly influenced by chemistry and minor influenced by its construction.
Its for a special reason, that WE did its own numbering system and no one else did manufacture those types like it was common with other popular tubes. But even among those, a Tele ECC83 sounds different to a Valvo or Siemens tube of the same type. They had their own types of tubes, did their own manufacture and if there were some other manufacturers that did replica 300B, they obviously had to sound different.
To put those prestigous and outstanding tubes in a middle class amp to work simply ruins its potential performance and its potential sound.
Thats the reason why it doesn't make much sense to use it in combination with a, lets say, lower class $800 china tube amp. 300B is a sport of the kings nowadays. Because were not talking just about amps here. A complete audio system that makes sense in combination with such a tube has a price tag in the $100.000 plus region. The tube is just a small minor part of the whole system.
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1. Different tube manufacturers, different manufacturing decades . . .
in the same amplifier circuit can have different maximum power, different distortion levels at high output levels, etc.
But at more moderate power levels, if there is lots of negative feedback around the tube (global or local), the sound of different tubes is more similar.
Negative Feedback tends to smooth out the differences.
2. An amplifier that does not have any negative feedback, will tend to more dramatically show the differences in sound of different tubes.
3. Another difference in various tubes is that just because they are the same type, does not mean that they will not bias differently.
Different amplifiers deal with this in different ways.
. . . Some amps tend to make the quiescent conditions of different tubes to be very similar. That may tend to have similar sound.
. . . Some amplifiers will have widely different quiescent conditions of different tubes of the same tube type. That may have large sound differnces.
Behind many differences, there is a reason (but we may not always know the reason).
Just my opinion
in the same amplifier circuit can have different maximum power, different distortion levels at high output levels, etc.
But at more moderate power levels, if there is lots of negative feedback around the tube (global or local), the sound of different tubes is more similar.
Negative Feedback tends to smooth out the differences.
2. An amplifier that does not have any negative feedback, will tend to more dramatically show the differences in sound of different tubes.
3. Another difference in various tubes is that just because they are the same type, does not mean that they will not bias differently.
Different amplifiers deal with this in different ways.
. . . Some amps tend to make the quiescent conditions of different tubes to be very similar. That may tend to have similar sound.
. . . Some amplifiers will have widely different quiescent conditions of different tubes of the same tube type. That may have large sound differnces.
Behind many differences, there is a reason (but we may not always know the reason).
Just my opinion
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What music is sufficiently well recorded, produced and transcribed to be performed on such a setup?
I once went to a high-end show near Zurich, and there was a room where they played something by Eric Clapton, and it was quite sensational.
But I have discovered that it is not so nice having some of the faults of beloved recordings being revealed too much, particularly when is comes to ADD or AAD recordings, and sometimes just bad production.
Isn't there some happy medium, where one can have the joy of a fine tube that has 'colour', but does not impede the sound, and be able to listen to the music, and not the sound of the music?
I have noticed there is a disease that often afflicts Audiophiles . . .
Some are never satisfied with their systems . . .
The symptom is - they can not enjoy the music.
If your system is that bad, wait until the pandemic is over, and go to a live, unamplified concert.
My second time in Munich, I made it a point to go to the symphony (in an acoustically near perfect concert hall).
A German orchestra, a German conductor, Beethoven . . . Wow!
Some are never satisfied with their systems . . .
The symptom is - they can not enjoy the music.
If your system is that bad, wait until the pandemic is over, and go to a live, unamplified concert.
My second time in Munich, I made it a point to go to the symphony (in an acoustically near perfect concert hall).
A German orchestra, a German conductor, Beethoven . . . Wow!
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Hi. This is the key factor. Enjoy the music. My brother in law was happy with a very standard audio system a lot years ago (with cassettes deck of 70s). Later was happy with a very old Marantz amp. Some years ago I built for him other audio system, a Elekit Tu8200 with full range SAL08 driver in open baffle (updated with lundhal opts now). He is again happy again, but really he is happy now and a lot years ago with very bad system (comparing with standard of now).
He is meloman. He teach me this concept and it is the truth.
Best all
He is meloman. He teach me this concept and it is the truth.
Best all