Personally, I'd rather buy 20 Chinese tubes and take my chances... Still less money than one made in USA.
Any did they really "resusitate" anything? The Soviets and Chinese reverse engineered tubes didn't they? And I wouldn't be surprised if Americans were now doing the same just because most of those knowledgeable people are dead?
Any did they really "resusitate" anything? The Soviets and Chinese reverse engineered tubes didn't they? And I wouldn't be surprised if Americans were now doing the same just because most of those knowledgeable people are dead?
The AT&T break-up yard-sale included the 1930s machinery and significant stocks of cathode and plate metals. (The cathode-Nickel is very critical, US Nickel used to prepare low-impurity ingots and tube makers would test against their cathode coatings.) They also had workers from the Kansas City plant, though how many are fit to work a day-shift today I do not know.
W.E. made a 6L6 and a few other not-so-exotic types, but most consumer tubes were beneath their notice. In that sense they may be at a disadvantage. Making, and also making at a marketable price (whatever that will be in the new world order-book).
The 12HL7 datasheet gm is 21000 at 25 mA, and the mu factor I have seen between 25 and 50 depending on manufacturer and tube. The great triode curve ones I've seen were curve tracer selected, not all of them are that good, but fortunately a fair percentage are.
There are some 12HL7 tubes around that have small guts that look like an 11HM7, and I doubt those make the 10 Watt rating. These smaller imposters also don't have great triode curves. The great triode curve ones I've seen were the full size ones, curve tracer selected.
12GN7 and 12HG7 do not have the great triode curves. These are optimized more for gm, 36000 with very tight grid1 to cathode spacing.
12HL7 looks physically identical, but has lower gm. Seems to be more like an old fashioned tube (greater grid1 to cathode spacing) but using a frame grid. They were probably cheaper to make (fewer rejects) than the extremely closely spaced higher gm versions (12GN7, 12HG7).
12HL7 is an oddity, as most high gm frame grid tubes around were optimized for the highest gm rather than for triode curves. If you compare the 12HL7 pentode curves against the 12GN7 pentode curves, you will see a remarkable even spacing in the 12HL7 curves (not present in the 12GN7 curves). The 12HL7 looks more like a Vertical Amp tube (linear).
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Thanks for this valuable information. Have to give priority to resurrecting my 576, the project on a back burner for several years...
A couple of year ago I wanted to have some top plates cut professionally, so I went to a 'Plate Specialist', just on the southern side of Stockholm, and I was given a tour of the machines so I could think how to optimise my request. Essentially, I provided drawings, there was a one-off fee for converting to a machine readable view, and then the additional costs were just for the materials used and machine time.
Most of their machines are so roboticised that they just load them with whatever plates are specified for the job, then turn out the lights, go home, and come back the next morning to unload them and complete the order. The machines can switch in drills, lasers, water cutting tools; it was impressive!
If a company like WE has to prepare to make new tubes, they are likely to have to create the programs for all the different discrete steps in production, but after that the costs are a lot less than I think people realise here. The shortage in tubes could have been all that was required to green light the project, since there ought to be some guaranteed sales to justify the up front costs, but hopefully once they have got their 21st processes tweaked, the costs could be competitive with more manual, 20th century manufacturing from other countries.
No one says Volkswagen cannot create cars that are affordable, but Germany is not the country with the lowest standard of living on the planet. It is the process that makes the difference, and let's hope Brimar can get going too.
Most of their machines are so roboticised that they just load them with whatever plates are specified for the job, then turn out the lights, go home, and come back the next morning to unload them and complete the order. The machines can switch in drills, lasers, water cutting tools; it was impressive!
If a company like WE has to prepare to make new tubes, they are likely to have to create the programs for all the different discrete steps in production, but after that the costs are a lot less than I think people realise here. The shortage in tubes could have been all that was required to green light the project, since there ought to be some guaranteed sales to justify the up front costs, but hopefully once they have got their 21st processes tweaked, the costs could be competitive with more manual, 20th century manufacturing from other countries.
No one says Volkswagen cannot create cars that are affordable, but Germany is not the country with the lowest standard of living on the planet. It is the process that makes the difference, and let's hope Brimar can get going too.
Gentlemen. Rule #2. Please read it.The owner of Decware posted and said he reached out to WE about getting a modified version of their potential EL84 for the UFO amp. I don't know if that implies they are running out of the current NOS Soviet tubes they have been using forever or they just want to wean themselves off of that and get a long-term solve. He seems pretty gung ho about getting something from the USA now that it might be an option. He also hinted he wants to build an amp around their 300B.
I can understand how any viable, long-term business would want to have a new production option vs. having to rely on decades-old stock that was only diminishing by the day. Maybe fine today...but 5, 10 years? Does someone have a massive hoard that might be in on place (which could burn down, get flooded, etc.).
I can understand how any viable, long-term business would want to have a new production option vs. having to rely on decades-old stock that was only diminishing by the day. Maybe fine today...but 5, 10 years? Does someone have a massive hoard that might be in on place (which could burn down, get flooded, etc.).
I work in consumer good and have done a lot with factories directly. Having a large production run drives your cost down, a lot. Not only is there the fixed cost of having to redo the production line (switching from a KT88 to a EL34), but the more volume you do, the more you can scale up the line (more steps, more automation) to make the product faster.
I was able to view the assembly of the cable that comes in-box with a cell phone. The production line had between 100-200 workers doing almost trivial steps, but because they were doing just one small step, they could do them quickly, and the end result is there was a cable coming off the line every few seconds. That line operated almost non-stop (I think double shifts and also weekends) and there were multiple lines.
Point being, it is expensive to get that line setup, expensive to staff, but if you can keep it going day after day, the costs per unit produced start to quickly fall.
After bad mouthing the smaller 12HL7 version that looks like an 11HM7, I looked up the 11HM7 datasheet, and to my surprise, it's got rather evenly spaced pentode curves like the 12HL7. I guess I better curve trace an 11HM7 to see what the triode curves look like. I know I got at least one of them around to curve trace once, before I moved. May take a while to find it.
Well, I found a GE and an RCA 11HM7. The GE one has bigger guts, almost the same as a 12HL7, 12GN7..., and it measures with a mu factor near a 12HL7. The triode curves have some roll-over above 300V, but are at least near evenly spaced above 10 mA.
The RCA 11HM7 has the small runt guts I was thinking of. It has a noticeably higher mu factor and the triode curves have quite noticeable roll-over above 300V. I would say this is what was in the runt 12HL7 tubes I came across once.
I stuck a 12HL7 in the tracer with the same setup just to check, and it clearly has the best triode curves. The GE 11HM7 is a decent tube, but 12HL7 takes a clear lead.
The RCA 11HM7 has the small runt guts I was thinking of. It has a noticeably higher mu factor and the triode curves have quite noticeable roll-over above 300V. I would say this is what was in the runt 12HL7 tubes I came across once.
I stuck a 12HL7 in the tracer with the same setup just to check, and it clearly has the best triode curves. The GE 11HM7 is a decent tube, but 12HL7 takes a clear lead.
What brands/makes of 12HL7 tend to have better triode curves? Or is it just sample specific? There's quite a variety of them, US, European, Japanese.
So what do you think the chances are of getting ANY of those old TV tube types in production anywhere?
There do seem to be quite a few types that do well for audio with off-label usage. When the dirt cheap NOS ones are gone there will be no more - at least right now.
I wonder what they would want for a 6LW6 if the KT88’s came in at least non-stratospheric in price.
I worked for Bell Labs for many years. I knew about the tubes but I was surprised to see Western Electric released a CD Player!
Doesn't look like it used tubes. 😉
Doesn't look like it used tubes. 😉
Anybody ever bought a new WE 300B, plugged it into an amplifier, listened to the amp with newly manufactured WE 300B tubes and can say it was worth the money? All I see are "opinions" about electrons emitted from new, modern tubes being fluffy, sparkly and bright before I put down my retired dollars. I was considering ordering a pair during the pandemic when I went online and learned that I would have to wait to receive my precious. Again I ask- anybody actually got a pair and listened? Was it worth the money? How do they sound?
I'm also curious that how close new 300B is to the original. They just bought the brand name and some abandoned equipments from original factory, and it does not mean they will be the same, but at least they should have a strong intention to make their products as close as possible to the original.
So far it is only promises. What makes me suspicious is their boisterous claims of expertise. Best materials! Best workmanship! Best technology! Best in the world! You want this tube - no problem! You want that - no problem! But where their expertise is coming from? I would believe if Svetlana or Shuguang made promises, but WE - sorry, I don't. After 10 years of steadily supplying the market with high quality product, fulfilling warranty obligations, and demonstrating superiority of their tubes, I would believe, maybe. Don't boast going to the battle, boast coming from the battle.
One should be careful sending money to them - high chances it will be lost.
They asked and I answered. I don't buy audiophool expensive tubes anyway. ( although Emission Labs has some intriguing offerings) These boutique types cost too damn much.
The most I ever spring for are “guitar amp grade“ tubes. But even then, only in a design that’s Guaranteed To Work, where I’ll at least get some return on the investment. Things that may end badly or at least Not Quite As Planned get cheaper TV tubes. Although I’ve got a preamp design in progress that’s almost certain to work that will be all made out of $3 TV tubes. A lot of them, hence wanting to get away from $20 SN7’s - which are fine if you only need on or two.