Crying about? There you go being so "nice" 🙄 I notice none of the original participants came forward to post them.Yay about time more got posted after what......900 plus posts? It was like pulling teeth to get what was posted. Like Speaker Dave said, it's a wave tube measurement and not in room. Off axis has to look worse in the higher frequencies.They do have a nice flat frequency response in that graph.Did I ever say the driver was junk or not up to par? NO I just wanted some decent data to back up people's claims. There wasn't that simple to accomplish.
So what do we have so far? An old driver and new drivers being made, what are the costs of each? Does the performance validate the cost or are there better less expensive drivers out there? How much of the glorifying of the WE is warranted and how much is just fan based subjectivity run amok? Just throwing out some valid questions .
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It was in response to Bear who seems to think"proof" means nothing and Toole and Olive didn't do much of anything. Just figured he was anti-progress.
Thanks for the links!
We read that far field transition can take place were:
"The distance from the source where the path length difference for wave arrivals from points on the device on the surface plane perpendicular to the point of observation are within one-quarter wavelength at the highest frequency of interest (Figure 2)."
What would we claim is the highest frequency of interest on the 15A horn?
We read that far field transition can take place were:
"The distance from the source where the path length difference for wave arrivals from points on the device on the surface plane perpendicular to the point of observation are within one-quarter wavelength at the highest frequency of interest (Figure 2)."
What would we claim is the highest frequency of interest on the 15A horn?
Actually, I was the one calling into question Toole and Olive's "proof". There's no argument they've written a lot of white papers and have some nice AES recommendations. I guess that's a form of progress...?
But still waiting to hear from anyone products from JBL, Infinity, Harmon/Kardon or Revel that are the concrete realization of this "progress". Especially ones that were/are as technologically and culturally groundbreaking as the WE gear or the ESL 57.
Anyone?
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Hi
I think it depends on the situation, in one extreme listening outdoors, there is no reflected sound from the walls or ceiling so the directivity is essentially irrelevant to the listening experience.
Then it is the ability of the speaker to produce the electrical signal as sound pressure.
To be an ideal device faithful to the signal, it has to have flat amplitude response over a wide band, it has to have a limited amount of speaker generated sound not present in the input signal (free sound) and it has to produce a complex signal with all the harmonics of the complex in the correct time relationship.
Make a speaker that does that and you can include it in a signal chain (and if recorded with a measurement microphone, sounds fine).
Outdoors (anechoic) , it is pretty easy to make a speaker that measures very “flat” compared to a horn.
On the other hand, when you move indoors and measure the speaker as it is experienced at the listening position and you find the response of what was a very flat speaker is now + - 10 or 20 dB due to the reflected sound.
Now, the “less flat” horn may be much flatter at the listing position AND more of the direct signal is arriving as the dominant sound (good thing).
Now, should I care what happens at the listening position?
Only if you listen from there and like stereo imaging and here is where many kinds of directional speakers (not just horns) can have an edge so far as the reflected sound compared to the cone/dome system..
Remember there are lots of possible flaws, the issue of where the sound goes is only one.
For those who have ARTA, one can compare a very directional speaker to a normal cone /dome system at the listening position using the Cumulative Burst Decay view and you see the reflected sound that arrives after the direct sound is suppressed. An ETC shows a 1D view of that too.
By very directional let me be clear, I DON’T mean narrow but rather that there is comparatively little energy radiated outside of the intended pattern.
A speaker like the SH-50’s pattern is about 50 degrees wide and tall all the way up, as close as I can get to constant directivity, as near as I can get to the behavior of a single wide band driver.
As side wall or other “close to the speaker” reflections are most problematic for stereo, directivity can address that.
If the sound radiated to the sides is far down in level compared to the front in pattern sound then those reflections are that much reduced as well.
While we don’t sell to the hifi market and there isn’t much interest other than mine personally, I do believe what we have done in commercial sound is “hifi” and sound wise, as John Clease would say “ something completely different”.
These are the product of about 14 years of work too so I am unavoidably biased, also deep down have always been a hifi speaker wannabe.
Try this video with headphones, a large stadium sized Synergy horn speaker we make being installed for the first time in stereo indoors in a reflective room with no absorption or bodies (with plenty of headroom).
First Baptist Goodletsville w/Danley JH90 cabinets Main floor on Vimeo
An operator comments on the stereo;
A STEREO PAIR OF DANLEY JERICHO HORNS HERALD A NEW REFERENCE SPEAKER MODEL FOR CHURCH AUDIO | The Wire on SVConline
Best,
Tom
Tom, thanks for your post and while I really appreciate everything you've done and achieved I'm still missing data I believe is crucial.
I'm not sure what the "walk around cam" demo really shows - how was it recorded?
I'm not sure what the "walk around cam" demo really shows - how was it recorded?
Hmmm...that's exactly my point...Silbatone has enough resources to do better than this unauthorized? recording. Surely they must have access to some vintage mics? I do believe Western Electric had its hand in some of this technology as well.😀
It's their reputation on the line...which would seem reason enough to ensure such a poorly recorded video is not the go-to example of their WE statement piece. And no, a properly set up Nagara with the right mic would have done a lot more justice to the WE.
I wouldn't evaluate speakers on this basis but there are many many recordings of loudspeakers that give a slight idea of what the fuss is all about. Tom Danley's video gave me a sense of what he's been up to.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Yes, no shortage of brochure hyperbole back then either at AR. Quad and others...but I thought these guys (Silbatone) were about top-drawer audio science and design?...not just marketing hyperbole...so in this specific case I would have to say we obviously haven't come very far since 1928.😉 particularly since the WE papers Speaker Dave put up here show a lot lot more science than the Silbatone and GIP catalogue.
Thanks for the clarification Bear...it's just that that Silbatone catalogue was conjoined with the GIP one and they use many of GIPs loudspeakers so I was assuming the relationship is pretty close being as Silbatone trumpets the sonic magic of the old WE systems as does GIP in marketing their new and technologically improved line of WE clone product.
Just seems so strange that such an esoteric company with big big $$$ price tags doesn't include any measurement data with their catalogue...particularly at such a prestigious venue with so many audiophools🙄 in attendance.
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The room in Munich was large and listening conditions were nearfield - the horns beam and the side walls were quite far away. But anyway, it was just what Toole&Olive like: for the most important part of freq. spectrum the on axis response was relatively flat (to my ears), power response was smooth and bass extension (thanks to that OB sub) was good.
Here's Jeffrey Jackson's take (if this post contravenes any copyright or forum rules then please feel free to remove and I'll amend):
"...Second, the observation has to be made that there is indeed something special with these very early, compression driven, large, wide range horns. They do communicate something that our brains associate with being more enjoyable, more believable, and I will even say more *correct* than what the current 'state of the art' is offering... this is really undeniable fact... (even to someone like me - a classically trained engineer from a top US university who loves to measure and quantify things) ...
...heading back to my engineering side, I do want to know what we are not measuring that will help give insight into this.. of course I do... it could be a myriad of things... I still lean toward energy preservation... it certainly is not frequency response... and certainly not the distortion information that my computer spits out... it could also be the majority of the midrange coming from one driver... similar to what full range guys hear in a tiny room at low level...
...and lastly, I do want to comment on the actual setup from the perspective of the listener who already listens to WE and other large horn systems.. yes, there were many things we did not adjust... just due to time and due to not needing to... (what?).. yes, as our fearless leader said when I was adding my vote to bring the speakers closer together again: "Jackson, you always want one hundred points. Eighty points is good enough." .. what he means is that this exhibition is not for the already committed horn and WE listeners, it is to show the general public.. it is a just that, an exhibition... and believe me, in this era of web readers who are now 'experts' in a year, this guy was listening to his own WE 15a system in 1987... what were you listening to then?
so, in rapid fire order, the issues from the '100 point guy'...
*brand new cartridge.. but when AJ personally delivers a 'special' cartridge, what do you do?
*brand new digital - I cut the factory tape on the boxes
*we lost power on Saturday.. we ran *everything* through a HORNBACH (Home Depot) 14 gauge extension cord!
*one side wall of solid glass, floor to ceiling, all concrete everything else... oh, except the tile ceiling...
*the amp we were to use landed with no tubes (did we find them in Korea?) ... so wrong amp...
*simple and lighter weight field coil supplies
*no time to adjust tilt of the 15A (so the tonal balance was not quite right)
*no time to adjust the felt lining (but the velvet Guiness towel was fly)
*an unknown bass cabinet and design (phenomenal work, JC! I thought it was awesome even if some crossover work may have made it even better)
*we knowingly gave the best room position to our friends at GIP... the 15's were way too wide...
*heck, we did not even know what turntables were coming until they rolled through the front door (both tables were super cool... maybe I will invite some guest bloggers to talk about them.. they are worth several posts each)
and really, as was said over the course of the show, this is the "number four" WE system... the 15a is awesome... yep, no doubt. but it is lacking in detail retrieval compared to the best.. the thin plywood does get a little too active for my tastes... this speaker has much more radiating area than the largest Magnepan... so the wood sounds a little artificially 'warm'.. but that allows you to play many more recordings, which could swing my vote... it is also a little light in absolute power response as frequency climbs... laws of physics are still laws of physics..."
Jackson also responds to a question about energy preservation:
"Energy preservation is quite simply an extension of what we have been following for quite some time - high efficiency.. but it is moving from one guideline/theory of many into law.. a law that must still combine with others... such as: all of the midrange must come from either one driver or extremely similar drivers.. I was just trying to note that this is now something that has enough data points to more firmly resist toppling.. systems beyond 60% efficiency are rare... and while not always sounding wonderful, certainly tend to sound "alive".... maybe it is time to prioritize that giant low mid field coil compression driver.."
You can read the full post here at Jeffrey's blog: hifi heroin: Munich High End 2012 - Silbatone and the Western Electric 15a
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Again, I have ZERO relationship with Silbatone or GIP, never met them either, or spoken to either company. But, you have to understand that they do not care about what you or I want or think. The idea is simple, if you have to ask about the price, you can't afford one. Period. Sorry, but this is the way some things work. It's like buying anything else in the *exotic* or stratospheric range - anyone who wants measurements can afford to hire someone to do them and not notice the amount of money it costs.
That doesn't mean that I don't want to see the measurements at all. Doesn't mean that they ought not to post measurements. Just that the usual expectations really do not apply to companies and products of this sort.
This is the sort of stuff that the person buying it might have to decide which house in which country and in which room it will go... well some days I wish I could sell to that market and to those customers too.
_-_-bear
That doesn't mean that I don't want to see the measurements at all. Doesn't mean that they ought not to post measurements. Just that the usual expectations really do not apply to companies and products of this sort.
This is the sort of stuff that the person buying it might have to decide which house in which country and in which room it will go... well some days I wish I could sell to that market and to those customers too.
_-_-bear
"...this guy was listening to his own WE 15a system in 1987... what were you listening to then?"
Jean Hiraga's WE 15a system. 😛
Jean Hiraga's WE 15a system. 😛
So in actuality there's perhaps 5 people on this forum that could afford them and no one is willing to quote a price regardless? Why would doing measurements cost an arm and a leg too? So this whole discussion is similar to a car forum where most drive a Chevy/Ford/Chrysler/Toyota/Honda/etc.....and talk about the latest Lamborghini that gets 10 MPG . seats 2, does zero to 60 in 4.5 seconds and handles great but the prospect of ever owning one is nil, it costs more than their house does, and the wife would never allow it to happen anyway since "where would the kids sit?"
Oh brother........so the higher the cost the less info they are obligated to give?Sounds very much like the uber priced cables that "lift 7 veils from the music"" yet "there are some things we just can't measure".
Not me, I find such people willing to lay out large amounts cash without a seconds thought on the real performance on just what they have purchased only that it is "The Best:", slightly repugnant.
Its the same with high end turntable manufacturers. Nobody quotes wow, flutter and rumble numbers anymore because they don't have the gear to measure it. Of course we all know that "those measurements don't relate to how things sound..."
David S.
Regarding the 60% efficiency number I would be curious as to how they measured it.
The classic definition of compression driver efficiency gives an absolute maximum of 50%. A good JBL white paper on it here uses the classic definition. It also shows some terminated tube measurements of JBL and TAD drivers.
http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/support/getfile.aspx?docid=295&doctype=3
Keele later wrote and excellent paper and redefined the efficiency calculation in true efficiency terms, rather than related to nominal efficiency (based on nominal impedance) here.
http://www.xlrtechs.com/dbkeele.com...Maximum Efficiency of Compression Drivers.pdf
An excellent paper that also has easy to follow graphs of what happens when you vary diaphragm mass, compression ratio or BL. Unlike the direct radiators that we are used to, higher BL expands bandwidth and adding mass does nothing to efficiency but loses high end (lower rolloff point), all related to the different opperating mode and more resistive load of an ideal horn. Although he allows for 100% efficiency he shows that typical drivers, with a useful bandwidth, are more typically in the 30 to 40% range.
As to high efficiency being the key to great sound, no one has ever shown any linkage between efficiency and accuracy, even though Klipsch used to try and scare us with measurements of Bose 901 drivers. My money is on the magic being in that pre-war steel.
David S.
The classic definition of compression driver efficiency gives an absolute maximum of 50%. A good JBL white paper on it here uses the classic definition. It also shows some terminated tube measurements of JBL and TAD drivers.
http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/support/getfile.aspx?docid=295&doctype=3
Keele later wrote and excellent paper and redefined the efficiency calculation in true efficiency terms, rather than related to nominal efficiency (based on nominal impedance) here.
http://www.xlrtechs.com/dbkeele.com...Maximum Efficiency of Compression Drivers.pdf
An excellent paper that also has easy to follow graphs of what happens when you vary diaphragm mass, compression ratio or BL. Unlike the direct radiators that we are used to, higher BL expands bandwidth and adding mass does nothing to efficiency but loses high end (lower rolloff point), all related to the different opperating mode and more resistive load of an ideal horn. Although he allows for 100% efficiency he shows that typical drivers, with a useful bandwidth, are more typically in the 30 to 40% range.
As to high efficiency being the key to great sound, no one has ever shown any linkage between efficiency and accuracy, even though Klipsch used to try and scare us with measurements of Bose 901 drivers. My money is on the magic being in that pre-war steel.
David S.
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Magic steel? I don't think so.
Efficiency is important, small details are lost in high powered units with complex crossovers, inefficient heavy drivers.
The small details and timbre are lost to heat, also the direct radiator does not amplify.
The efficiency is higher also because the horn is an amplifier, a direct radiator is not.
As far as price, the last unloaded 16A horn(s) I noticed on eBay sold for around $26,000.
Efficiency is important, small details are lost in high powered units with complex crossovers, inefficient heavy drivers.
The small details and timbre are lost to heat, also the direct radiator does not amplify.
The efficiency is higher also because the horn is an amplifier, a direct radiator is not.
As far as price, the last unloaded 16A horn(s) I noticed on eBay sold for around $26,000.
DavidS...I'll quote you a price ---> $100,000.
We usually downplay the prices to keep crotchety old complainers at bay.
Silbatone is not profit driven. If you have a trunk full of $100 bills ready to buy and we think you are an anal orifice, we will tell you to get lost. Point of pride. Go find an Audio Note dealer! 😀
OK, now you can go back to thinking about building $50 chip amps to max out on bang for the buck.
Silbatone measures a lot. jc morrison is a very scientific engineer and our other designer, Dr. Steven Bae, is a PhD in Physics.
Our C-100 preamp was measured by LP Magazine in Germany. Quietest tube preamp ever measured. Excelled in many other measurement parameters also. I have the review in German if somebody wants it.
"This is one of the very few preamps about which you no longer need to debate whether it is really good. The C-100 is a revelation."
Holger Barske, Editor in Chief, LP Magazin für analoges Hi-Fi und Vinyl-Kultur, 4/2011
Stereo Sound just measured our C-100 preamp. The Editor, an 70+ year old man who is the KING of audio in Asia, said it is the best vacuum tube amplifier he has ever encountered. He is using it in his personal system. In fact, he is returning to vinyl after giving up years ago thanks to the Silbatone preamp.
They did about 50 pages of measurements. They checked the attenuation and channel to channel balance on every step of a 60 step attenuator.
We know what measurements are and they are no basis for a purchase decision and of very limited utility for making sound quality decisions.
We see measurements as a way to make sure an item is working properly and up to the promise of the circuitry. And Silbatone gear measures extremely well.
Otherwise, measurements erase all unique performance characteristics of a particular item. Silbatone is held to the same standard as a Sherwood receiver from the 70s. In a way, this is fair. In another way, this is the most absurd procedure imaginable.
There is probably a TANG BAND 3" metal cone driver that has the same FR as a 15A. Will it sound like a 15A?
morrison posts circuits that are the building blocks for Silbatone gear (with measurements) on his blog labjc.com
He and I strongly believe is sharing circuits and design concepts, not only measurements (which in themselves are useless to do anything with).
I think I speak for my colleagues in saying that we would rather have people evaluate our gear in the music listening context that is was designed for.
That is the real performance metric and the only one that really matters, once it is established that a unit is working as it should be.
Although this thread is among the most tedious experiences of my life, there is some learning going on. I can't expect brutish objectivist pinheads to come to terms with the profound theoretical and practical deficiencies of their methods. This would take a self-directed interest in further education.
I hinted at a few of the profound delusions that underpin the retarded notion of the subjectivist/objectivist split. Forget Toole...read Wittgenstein.
The term "paradigm shift" was mentioned in passing. Read Thomas Kuhn on the notion of paradigmatic science and maybe you will come to recognize that "science" is organized according to cultural (i.e. non-necessary) principles. Eventually the holes in the armor become apparent and the old scheme is rejected in favor of a new one.
Well, this happened for subjectivist/objectivist split almost 100 years ago, although there were thinkers in the days of the Enlightenment age that spawned these fictions who argued powerfully against them.
The Enlightenment claimed that man using logic and reason could apprehend and control the universe, leading to a golden age of endless progress and earthly glory.
They were like a bunch of Speaker Daves with powdered wigs.
Well the tuna have Cesium 137, can't buy a freaking tomato without GMO beetle DNA, my dog won't eat half the food in the supermarket, the world economic system hangs by a thread...
And scientists all now know that logical positivism was a delusional dream.
Sorry fellas, nothing, especially measurements, is going to bridge the gap to the experience you didn't have.
Scientists are supposed to be into empirical experiments...well, go do some. You'll need the physical speaker for that.
On the other hand, people seem to be realizing that Western Electric was a remarkable institution at the center of actual scientific research in electronics and acoustics. Research more and you will be even more impressed with what this arm of Big Science achieved with the WE theater gear.
To me, the achievements of Western Electric demonstrate that "science" as it was then conceptualized did indeed serve a useful fiction to organize the social labor of research and development.
When you nerds find the measurements you seek, they will show that WE field coil gear is very respectable in performance, even by modern-day standards.
If somebody think that secondary resonances on a beryllium diaphragm that yield uncorrelated tizz out to 20k is progress, go at it.
The 1930's 594A controlled the natural 6db mass rolloff to +- 0.1db. Art Garcia (ex-RCA) had measurements to confirm that. The idea was that a converse first-order network in the electronics would yield flat response to 13k. Furthermore, according to Art, they were concerned with and controlled for group delay under that condition.
This was not Thomas Edison style goal-oriented wanking about in the shop.
The fact seems to me that Western Electric had more science behind them than any other speaker company since. PC based measurement may have narrowed the gap on measurement capability but Western Electric had guys like this hanging around.
Ralph Hartley - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Just to name one.
Wente, Thuras, Fletcher, Bostwick. I consider these guys applied physicists, back when a lab coat was a lab coat. Few people could fill those shoes and people in this field today who know history would be the last to demean their accomplishments.
Back to the 15A system in Munich, I grant that we had problems with the set up and show conditions, but does anybody who was there think that any known mic-based measurements will provide a mental picture of how LED ZEP sounded blasting on the 15As?
This is the story of the triumph of history and experience over mathematics. Even if the mathematics is there, and it all does line up for Western gear, it is background noise.
We usually downplay the prices to keep crotchety old complainers at bay.
Silbatone is not profit driven. If you have a trunk full of $100 bills ready to buy and we think you are an anal orifice, we will tell you to get lost. Point of pride. Go find an Audio Note dealer! 😀
OK, now you can go back to thinking about building $50 chip amps to max out on bang for the buck.
Silbatone measures a lot. jc morrison is a very scientific engineer and our other designer, Dr. Steven Bae, is a PhD in Physics.
Our C-100 preamp was measured by LP Magazine in Germany. Quietest tube preamp ever measured. Excelled in many other measurement parameters also. I have the review in German if somebody wants it.
"This is one of the very few preamps about which you no longer need to debate whether it is really good. The C-100 is a revelation."
Holger Barske, Editor in Chief, LP Magazin für analoges Hi-Fi und Vinyl-Kultur, 4/2011
Stereo Sound just measured our C-100 preamp. The Editor, an 70+ year old man who is the KING of audio in Asia, said it is the best vacuum tube amplifier he has ever encountered. He is using it in his personal system. In fact, he is returning to vinyl after giving up years ago thanks to the Silbatone preamp.
They did about 50 pages of measurements. They checked the attenuation and channel to channel balance on every step of a 60 step attenuator.
We know what measurements are and they are no basis for a purchase decision and of very limited utility for making sound quality decisions.
We see measurements as a way to make sure an item is working properly and up to the promise of the circuitry. And Silbatone gear measures extremely well.
Otherwise, measurements erase all unique performance characteristics of a particular item. Silbatone is held to the same standard as a Sherwood receiver from the 70s. In a way, this is fair. In another way, this is the most absurd procedure imaginable.
There is probably a TANG BAND 3" metal cone driver that has the same FR as a 15A. Will it sound like a 15A?
morrison posts circuits that are the building blocks for Silbatone gear (with measurements) on his blog labjc.com
He and I strongly believe is sharing circuits and design concepts, not only measurements (which in themselves are useless to do anything with).
I think I speak for my colleagues in saying that we would rather have people evaluate our gear in the music listening context that is was designed for.
That is the real performance metric and the only one that really matters, once it is established that a unit is working as it should be.
Although this thread is among the most tedious experiences of my life, there is some learning going on. I can't expect brutish objectivist pinheads to come to terms with the profound theoretical and practical deficiencies of their methods. This would take a self-directed interest in further education.
I hinted at a few of the profound delusions that underpin the retarded notion of the subjectivist/objectivist split. Forget Toole...read Wittgenstein.
The term "paradigm shift" was mentioned in passing. Read Thomas Kuhn on the notion of paradigmatic science and maybe you will come to recognize that "science" is organized according to cultural (i.e. non-necessary) principles. Eventually the holes in the armor become apparent and the old scheme is rejected in favor of a new one.
Well, this happened for subjectivist/objectivist split almost 100 years ago, although there were thinkers in the days of the Enlightenment age that spawned these fictions who argued powerfully against them.
The Enlightenment claimed that man using logic and reason could apprehend and control the universe, leading to a golden age of endless progress and earthly glory.
They were like a bunch of Speaker Daves with powdered wigs.
Well the tuna have Cesium 137, can't buy a freaking tomato without GMO beetle DNA, my dog won't eat half the food in the supermarket, the world economic system hangs by a thread...
And scientists all now know that logical positivism was a delusional dream.
Sorry fellas, nothing, especially measurements, is going to bridge the gap to the experience you didn't have.
Scientists are supposed to be into empirical experiments...well, go do some. You'll need the physical speaker for that.
On the other hand, people seem to be realizing that Western Electric was a remarkable institution at the center of actual scientific research in electronics and acoustics. Research more and you will be even more impressed with what this arm of Big Science achieved with the WE theater gear.
To me, the achievements of Western Electric demonstrate that "science" as it was then conceptualized did indeed serve a useful fiction to organize the social labor of research and development.
When you nerds find the measurements you seek, they will show that WE field coil gear is very respectable in performance, even by modern-day standards.
If somebody think that secondary resonances on a beryllium diaphragm that yield uncorrelated tizz out to 20k is progress, go at it.
The 1930's 594A controlled the natural 6db mass rolloff to +- 0.1db. Art Garcia (ex-RCA) had measurements to confirm that. The idea was that a converse first-order network in the electronics would yield flat response to 13k. Furthermore, according to Art, they were concerned with and controlled for group delay under that condition.
This was not Thomas Edison style goal-oriented wanking about in the shop.
The fact seems to me that Western Electric had more science behind them than any other speaker company since. PC based measurement may have narrowed the gap on measurement capability but Western Electric had guys like this hanging around.
Ralph Hartley - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Just to name one.
Wente, Thuras, Fletcher, Bostwick. I consider these guys applied physicists, back when a lab coat was a lab coat. Few people could fill those shoes and people in this field today who know history would be the last to demean their accomplishments.
Back to the 15A system in Munich, I grant that we had problems with the set up and show conditions, but does anybody who was there think that any known mic-based measurements will provide a mental picture of how LED ZEP sounded blasting on the 15As?
This is the story of the triumph of history and experience over mathematics. Even if the mathematics is there, and it all does line up for Western gear, it is background noise.
ok, led zep?
you want stacked Bose 901s, Phase Linear 700, and an open, blank, real thick plaster over lathe wall, solid hardwood floors and tall ceilings... ahhhh... whole lotta love baby!! sit back in ur lazy bastard recliner and reeee-lax! Now THAT is really good sound brutha! Good sound.
Baby you need COOL AIR! BABY I GOT COOL AIR!!
_-_-bear
you want stacked Bose 901s, Phase Linear 700, and an open, blank, real thick plaster over lathe wall, solid hardwood floors and tall ceilings... ahhhh... whole lotta love baby!! sit back in ur lazy bastard recliner and reeee-lax! Now THAT is really good sound brutha! Good sound.
Baby you need COOL AIR! BABY I GOT COOL AIR!!
_-_-bear
Really? I always thought they were singing Kool Aid!
(guess I need a better system)
David