Well deserved rest. What do you think of putting coils in a tank and fill it with epoxy resin? That would have looked dynamite.
I would have loved to dip the coils! It's just not viable for me.
Had I dipped them, I'm guessing I'd have to drill a hole to make them air core again?
Had I dipped them, I'm guessing I'd have to drill a hole to make them air core again?
Why would you drill a hole at all? Just make these as if it were encapsulated transformers. And then put a sticker Moondorf Supreme Coils.
The speakers are built but not finished. That wasn't all that easy, to be honest.
They look very cool! I've set them up temporarily. They're a bit high up, but I can at least give them a listen. I am very well impressed to say the least. They are fantastically balanced! The major difference between these and the Celestions is that the Celestions push certain bass frequencies strongly, so the new speakers seem to have less bass, but it's actually just balanced.
I started off listening to a little ZZ Top, as these are "Gibbon 88" clones, so it's a bit of a tribute to Billy Gibbons. 🙂 Bass is definitely toned down. But after going through some high quality recordings of Tracy Chapman, I decided to get right to business and put on some Pendulum. Jumped right in and gave Set Me on Fire a listen. The bass is just spectacular. All the frequencies are present down to the lowest that song has to offer, and in an incredibly balanced way. I've currently got some Eric Clapton Unplugged on, and it's wonderful! I believe these speakers will need a bit of breathing space, playing in and to be much lower, but otherwise they're absolutely perfect.
And the best part - they sound superbly balanced at very low listening levels! It's uncanny. As you turn them up, they just go louder; they don't change their sound. I'm guessing that's a characteristic of the air inductors, but I can't say. These have definitely Changed My World. 😀
I will just say thanks for all the advice and help!! I believe I've made something worth much more than what I paid. I really hope this thread can help others.
They look very cool! I've set them up temporarily. They're a bit high up, but I can at least give them a listen. I am very well impressed to say the least. They are fantastically balanced! The major difference between these and the Celestions is that the Celestions push certain bass frequencies strongly, so the new speakers seem to have less bass, but it's actually just balanced.
I started off listening to a little ZZ Top, as these are "Gibbon 88" clones, so it's a bit of a tribute to Billy Gibbons. 🙂 Bass is definitely toned down. But after going through some high quality recordings of Tracy Chapman, I decided to get right to business and put on some Pendulum. Jumped right in and gave Set Me on Fire a listen. The bass is just spectacular. All the frequencies are present down to the lowest that song has to offer, and in an incredibly balanced way. I've currently got some Eric Clapton Unplugged on, and it's wonderful! I believe these speakers will need a bit of breathing space, playing in and to be much lower, but otherwise they're absolutely perfect.
And the best part - they sound superbly balanced at very low listening levels! It's uncanny. As you turn them up, they just go louder; they don't change their sound. I'm guessing that's a characteristic of the air inductors, but I can't say. These have definitely Changed My World. 😀
I will just say thanks for all the advice and help!! I believe I've made something worth much more than what I paid. I really hope this thread can help others.
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I think we should do a summary here! Sum it all up. 😀
Drivers, W170S 6" paper bass, SC10N soft dome tweeter:
W 170 S - 8 Ohm
SC 10 N - 8 Ohm
Closed Box around 32L wasn't it? No, I'm wrong, you did a reflex which is easily calculated with Visaton reflex data for the driver. DeVore style driver placement. The tweeter goes on the outside.
And a splendid old BBC style filter, with Impedance Correction on the bass and an unusual 3-4dB passive bafflestep with the 4.7R and 0.82mH coil in parallel. The 1uF and 6.8R is a notch at about 5.5kHz that aligns phase almost exactly. Nearly LR2. And the bass aircoils look good and are not huge values with this sort of bafflestep.
Now that is one heck of a good load for an amplifier! I think it helps. It would be highly suitable for a SET valve amp IMO. And I did sim that with a 6R resistor in front of the whole thing. Everything else is good too. I think you've done something interesting here that diyaudio people can apply and enjoy. Bravo! 😎
I could make one tiny suggestion, in that the tweeter coil axis might be pointed at right angles to the bass coils axes to reduce interaction. Because electromagnets do interact if close together. The simplest rule of thumb is that you can't see the second coil if you look down the axis of the first, and vice-versa. Like so:
Drivers, W170S 6" paper bass, SC10N soft dome tweeter:
W 170 S - 8 Ohm
SC 10 N - 8 Ohm
Closed Box around 32L wasn't it? No, I'm wrong, you did a reflex which is easily calculated with Visaton reflex data for the driver. DeVore style driver placement. The tweeter goes on the outside.
And a splendid old BBC style filter, with Impedance Correction on the bass and an unusual 3-4dB passive bafflestep with the 4.7R and 0.82mH coil in parallel. The 1uF and 6.8R is a notch at about 5.5kHz that aligns phase almost exactly. Nearly LR2. And the bass aircoils look good and are not huge values with this sort of bafflestep.
Now that is one heck of a good load for an amplifier! I think it helps. It would be highly suitable for a SET valve amp IMO. And I did sim that with a 6R resistor in front of the whole thing. Everything else is good too. I think you've done something interesting here that diyaudio people can apply and enjoy. Bravo! 😎
I could make one tiny suggestion, in that the tweeter coil axis might be pointed at right angles to the bass coils axes to reduce interaction. Because electromagnets do interact if close together. The simplest rule of thumb is that you can't see the second coil if you look down the axis of the first, and vice-versa. Like so:
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Thank you Steve. You will notice I haven't put up any photos of the completed speakers yet... 🙂 I was going to write the summary and take decent photos. I took some this morning but they're appalling, so I'll take properly tonight like I wanted to in the first place.
I really put the speakers through their paces last night, and they sound excellent!
I will turn those HPF inductors when I start the finishing off process. Makes perfect sense - I wasn't thinking right when I made the boards. Thanks!
The enclosures are approximately 32 L vented. I'll put the exact inner dimensions on when I post the nice photos later. I went for the vented boxes because I can plug the ports, but I can't port the sealed box.
I will hopefully also measure the impedance tonight and post something about that.
Steve - kudos to you!
I really put the speakers through their paces last night, and they sound excellent!
I will turn those HPF inductors when I start the finishing off process. Makes perfect sense - I wasn't thinking right when I made the boards. Thanks!
The enclosures are approximately 32 L vented. I'll put the exact inner dimensions on when I post the nice photos later. I went for the vented boxes because I can plug the ports, but I can't port the sealed box.
I will hopefully also measure the impedance tonight and post something about that.
Steve - kudos to you!
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Tweeter pulled away to the sides is causing you lateral spl holes at an increasing off-axis angle. But you prefer it this way.
I'm definitely a beginner, so I stand to be corrected. You'll see on the "to the right" curve, the 30 degree line is very good. This is a simulation of the left speaker. It's not going to happen that these speakers are listened to at anything near 30 degrees. And if need be, a bit of toe-in isn't a bad thing.
The top and bottom curves are my main worry, but again, their position puts them nowhere near 30 degrees. They're very much ear-level. And my listening position is far away; about 4 - 5 meters minimum.
I did think about this a lot, and compared the simulation to other tweeter positions, and it looks fine. I'm going to try measure frequency response at my listening position to give a verdict.
Regardless, they sound fantastic! 🙂
The top and bottom curves are my main worry, but again, their position puts them nowhere near 30 degrees. They're very much ear-level. And my listening position is far away; about 4 - 5 meters minimum.
I did think about this a lot, and compared the simulation to other tweeter positions, and it looks fine. I'm going to try measure frequency response at my listening position to give a verdict.
Regardless, they sound fantastic! 🙂
Human hearing capabilities takes into consideration the average response of the multiple on and off-axis responses. Your power response curve is little less optimal than it could have been. You have probably seen and heard many times that some audiophiles prefer the tweeter moved a little bit closer to the edge for the simulation of baffle step does appear more smooth than strictly on-axis but when you calculate the average response of all the curves in the listening window than there is hardly any wrinkles anymore. I have posted a couple of months ago an excel based calculation with the graph that proves it. That's why manufacturers mostly don't bother with this.
Interesting, and definitely something I can learn more about. It is also possible to change the enclosure in the future.
Edit: youtube detected a copyright infringement for videos I posted. I'll have to figure it out quick.
Edit: youtube detected a copyright infringement for videos I posted. I'll have to figure it out quick.
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Here I have my system set up. The glass top panel of the amplifier is off at the moment because I'm going to have a logo sand blasted on. The computer there will be replaced by a Raspberry Pi with a Hifiberry all running Kodi. I'll run the DAC at 48kHz and 16 or 24 bit probably. But enough about that. The stands are temporary. I'm going to build similar looking stands that look better and have larger floor panel to hold steadier. The setup like this sounds amazing! Notice the speakers - the tweeters are to the outside. This is how John DeVore recommends setting up the Gibbon 88's, and I agree. I'm hopefully going to cover the speakers tonight.
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Nice Project Mrcloc.
A early project in late 90's was the Klang & Ton CT142 TML Construction.
As other told in Forum you only have to change the 10 Ohm resistor to 3,3
Ohm or so to use SC10N.
You can start another Speakercase and enjoy.
Look here in Visaton Archiv Bauvorschläge.
CT 142 (09/97) - Visaton Diskussionsforum
Archiv Bauvorschläge - Visaton Diskussionsforum
Actually i work on little Aria ultra light from MrWoofa with W100S + SC10N.
The W100 is a good Candidate in Midtone Frequency, my opinion.
Have fun.
A early project in late 90's was the Klang & Ton CT142 TML Construction.
As other told in Forum you only have to change the 10 Ohm resistor to 3,3
Ohm or so to use SC10N.
You can start another Speakercase and enjoy.
Look here in Visaton Archiv Bauvorschläge.
CT 142 (09/97) - Visaton Diskussionsforum
Archiv Bauvorschläge - Visaton Diskussionsforum
Actually i work on little Aria ultra light from MrWoofa with W100S + SC10N.
The W100 is a good Candidate in Midtone Frequency, my opinion.
Have fun.
Thank you Bangla H! I really like the look of the Klang & Ton cheap trick - I thought about doing something like that as well. The CT142 looks interesting. I'm not going to be doing something like that any time soon though. But I will say that anyone wanting to use Visaton mid/woofers is making a sensible choice. I really like the W170S - it does a great job, and it has very low distortion.
The Aria / Aria light, etc. aren't what I was after. To me, music is best enjoyed in stereo without the help of anything else, like a subwoofer. Therefore, the speakers need to cover the whole range. What I have built move the couch while I can't hear the bass. That's what I wanted, and that's what I've got - I'm a very happy man right now.
On a different note; something I was going to post soon anyway, is that the SC10N, although good quality, can be a bit harsh when the system is pushed. I've found the same with other 1" fabric domes I've used in the past. I am definitely going to find a suitable cone tweeter to try out. I recently did a basic 1st order build using 0.5" PP dome tweeters. It wasn't good. I replaced the tweeters with small 1.25" Pioneer cones and it made a massive difference! They sound so sweet.
This also relates to your post, Bangla H: The position of the tweeter needs to be enough away from the mid/bass so that I can replace it if I want to, especially with a cone. I've wanted to try a cone vs a dome since I started the build, I just need to find the right cone.
The Aria / Aria light, etc. aren't what I was after. To me, music is best enjoyed in stereo without the help of anything else, like a subwoofer. Therefore, the speakers need to cover the whole range. What I have built move the couch while I can't hear the bass. That's what I wanted, and that's what I've got - I'm a very happy man right now.
On a different note; something I was going to post soon anyway, is that the SC10N, although good quality, can be a bit harsh when the system is pushed. I've found the same with other 1" fabric domes I've used in the past. I am definitely going to find a suitable cone tweeter to try out. I recently did a basic 1st order build using 0.5" PP dome tweeters. It wasn't good. I replaced the tweeters with small 1.25" Pioneer cones and it made a massive difference! They sound so sweet.
This also relates to your post, Bangla H: The position of the tweeter needs to be enough away from the mid/bass so that I can replace it if I want to, especially with a cone. I've wanted to try a cone vs a dome since I started the build, I just need to find the right cone.
I'm almost done with my whole system. A custom designed 39 Vrms amplifier, these two Visaton-based speakers, and a Raspberry Pi with a DAC as the source. I've ordered my components for my preamplifier, which will have 5 inputs and volume control. Very basic, but all discrete. So I'm only missing a preamplifier, but that's fine for now. The amplifier does need to be driven a bit more, but it can do enough without the preamplifier for now. 🙂
Either way, I've been listening to a lot of music, and I've been enjoying it like nothing before. Clint Eastwood from Gorillaz rumbles the room. 😀 Really, I'm left for wanting nothing. I was listening to some 3 Doors Down (I really like the music and the way it's recorded), and at very low levels, the kick drum can be felt. A friend of mine bought a pair of Q Acoustics 2020i's, and he says the one thing they lack is the ability to delivery a solid bass kick. I built him a woofer, but it's not the same as the speakers providing everything. My W170S-based speakers thump like nothing else - it's all there.
I can really go on about these. They seem to be getting played in now, and it's a new level of awesome. But, this is an update that nothing has changed yet. I need to post proper pics of these. They kind of remind me of a black mamba - the black, but not quite black (grey) enclosure with the pitch-black mouth (cone). I'll just call them my black mambas.
Either way, I've been listening to a lot of music, and I've been enjoying it like nothing before. Clint Eastwood from Gorillaz rumbles the room. 😀 Really, I'm left for wanting nothing. I was listening to some 3 Doors Down (I really like the music and the way it's recorded), and at very low levels, the kick drum can be felt. A friend of mine bought a pair of Q Acoustics 2020i's, and he says the one thing they lack is the ability to delivery a solid bass kick. I built him a woofer, but it's not the same as the speakers providing everything. My W170S-based speakers thump like nothing else - it's all there.
I can really go on about these. They seem to be getting played in now, and it's a new level of awesome. But, this is an update that nothing has changed yet. I need to post proper pics of these. They kind of remind me of a black mamba - the black, but not quite black (grey) enclosure with the pitch-black mouth (cone). I'll just call them my black mambas.
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To me, music is best enjoyed in stereo without the help of anything elseAn other build was with W130S- Mini-Monitor Basic- 10L vented.
For SC10N i have sourced the IT Audyn plus cap- my experience: it sounds smooth with this tweeter.
As an Woofer i use time to time a Morel UW1058 in sealed 48L enclosure.
I also like to use bigger Woofer 15-18'' without enclosure- a different fast bass.
For any if interested CT142 crossover change (by visaton forum): L1: 1,2mH,
C1: 12uF; C2: 4,7uF should give better tonality.
A view what i have collected.🙂
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Wow, that collection looks good. 😀 I have a similar collection, but not as good-looking. It doesn't make the wife happy at all, so I'm busy trying to get rid of old enclosures and use old drivers for speakers for family/friends. We all need houses with 10 listening rooms, hey?
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We all need houses with 10 listening rooms, hey?Some Speaker are sold, some, most loved, waiting to play for next, some new
arrived.
Actually i am stepped back in over 30 years listening experience with simple
5'' paper cone Fulrange - RFT2302 in sealed box- it's funny.
Other should get a new style in colors- so i am busy.
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