Thanks.
The cabinets have the six blocks per speaker, with velcro stapled to each one.
Was the fibreboard a square frame, or was it a sheet with cutouts for the drivers?
Are there any places which sell the cloth in Oz?
While handling the speakers I inspected the attenuater controls at the rear between terminals.
They look like toggles but twist rather than switch.
I noticed they don't have stops and continue to twist without an apparent beginning or end.
Is that normal?
The front panels are cut out to slightly larger than the speaker frames.
Cloth is stretched neatly and glued around the edges.
As for the tweeter control, I don't remember much about it, search the net for answers.
As far as speaker value, I wouldn't get too hung up on potential values given certain renovations. The number of people willing to trade good sound for nostalgia is minimal. A pair of Bose 901s, which can be had all day long for $400-500, will absolutely blow away anything else in that price range!
I think listening to vintage speakers is like taking photos with film, eating vintage chicken, and/or hooking up a patient to vintage medical devices! Some things just have no vintage value except to suckers. There's one of those born every minute!
So, if you want to increase the value, make up some story like, "They belonged to 'Eddy Van Halen' when he was growing up!" Then, photoshop a picture of those speakers in a teenager's bedroom, and add a picture of Eddy to it. That should raise the value to $10,000 at least, as long as you can find someone to believe it.
But calculating how much dubious improvements and restoration will bring up the value on the open market leads back to the same thing, "How much is a person willing to pay? It's pure hype no matter how you look at it, because they just aren't very good by modern standards."
You need to sell on some criteria besides what they sound like and what great speakers they are.
It's like getting a 25-y.o. guy to propose to an 80-y.o. female. She might 'have been' really hot, but she sure isn't now, and plastic surgery won't fix that deficit. I marvel at those who make purchases of items because they're old. Not everything is worth more when it gets old.
In fact, very few things are, and it's only because of strong communities of collectors keeping prices up. I had some hand-me-down 'Hot Wheels' I got from my cousin. After a while I thought, I wonder if these are worth anything.
I looked on eBay, and they were worth a lot, like $50-$100 each! I thought, this will never last. I'm selling 'now'! The buyers were convnced the trend upwards in price would continue forever. It didn't. Presently, the same toy cars I sold 20 years ago are worth a few dollars apiece, and most of them will never sell. There are hundreds of thousands of listings made by those who just want to salvage something out of their huge collections.
I would never have thought of making any effort to make my Hot Wheels worth more, because the values were artificially inflated by hype! The same thing will happen with sports cards. People will realize they're just cardboard. Presently, the ancient maxim is holding. "There are limits to human intellect, but none whatsoever on stupidity!"
You see it every day. People root for a team that's expected to lose. People collect things that have zero intrinsic value. My sister IL gave her daughters 'Collector Barbie' dolls on birthdays and Christmas, as part of their college funds, because the values were increasing each year. Unfortunately for the girls, they were not allowed to unseal the retail boxes, because the values would drop to practically nothing!
Lo and behold, when the first daughter graduated high school, they went to sell the extremely valuable dolls that had been appreciating in value for decades. But she forgot to ask, 'who?' was determining the values of the 'Collector Barbies'.
It was Mattel, the manufacturer! Of course all the fine print was kept in perfect legal order, so it couldn't be sued for fraud! So, my course of action is always to use common sense. I ask, "What is the intrinsic value of such and such things? How has the market changed over the years? What will cause an upward trend in value to continue?
I'll give you an example. Buck Knives stopped manufacturing a very popular knife called the 'Buckmaster'. It had been designed for the US Military, and Buck was contracted by the design firm to do the manufacturing. After the contract was filled, Buck continued manufacturing for consumers, until one day it stopped. Time went by, and it appeared the knife would not continue.
I purchased 10 of them, because I couldn't afford more. But I knew given the mysterious circumstances--one of Buck's top sellers suddenly discontinued without a word--this knife was destined for greatness! And, so far it has increased in sale price by 1,300%. And it isn't likely to end any time soon, because it's something many people actually want for what it is, not nostalgia, no matter how high the price!
Speakers aren't like that. They wear out just sitting there. So, my advice is hype them on eBay in the item description. But don't go overboard, because eBay has rules against unsubstantiated claims appearing in item listings. But that's only if you really abuse it.
I think listening to vintage speakers is like taking photos with film, eating vintage chicken, and/or hooking up a patient to vintage medical devices! Some things just have no vintage value except to suckers. There's one of those born every minute!
So, if you want to increase the value, make up some story like, "They belonged to 'Eddy Van Halen' when he was growing up!" Then, photoshop a picture of those speakers in a teenager's bedroom, and add a picture of Eddy to it. That should raise the value to $10,000 at least, as long as you can find someone to believe it.
But calculating how much dubious improvements and restoration will bring up the value on the open market leads back to the same thing, "How much is a person willing to pay? It's pure hype no matter how you look at it, because they just aren't very good by modern standards."
You need to sell on some criteria besides what they sound like and what great speakers they are.
It's like getting a 25-y.o. guy to propose to an 80-y.o. female. She might 'have been' really hot, but she sure isn't now, and plastic surgery won't fix that deficit. I marvel at those who make purchases of items because they're old. Not everything is worth more when it gets old.
In fact, very few things are, and it's only because of strong communities of collectors keeping prices up. I had some hand-me-down 'Hot Wheels' I got from my cousin. After a while I thought, I wonder if these are worth anything.
I looked on eBay, and they were worth a lot, like $50-$100 each! I thought, this will never last. I'm selling 'now'! The buyers were convnced the trend upwards in price would continue forever. It didn't. Presently, the same toy cars I sold 20 years ago are worth a few dollars apiece, and most of them will never sell. There are hundreds of thousands of listings made by those who just want to salvage something out of their huge collections.
I would never have thought of making any effort to make my Hot Wheels worth more, because the values were artificially inflated by hype! The same thing will happen with sports cards. People will realize they're just cardboard. Presently, the ancient maxim is holding. "There are limits to human intellect, but none whatsoever on stupidity!"
You see it every day. People root for a team that's expected to lose. People collect things that have zero intrinsic value. My sister IL gave her daughters 'Collector Barbie' dolls on birthdays and Christmas, as part of their college funds, because the values were increasing each year. Unfortunately for the girls, they were not allowed to unseal the retail boxes, because the values would drop to practically nothing!
Lo and behold, when the first daughter graduated high school, they went to sell the extremely valuable dolls that had been appreciating in value for decades. But she forgot to ask, 'who?' was determining the values of the 'Collector Barbies'.
It was Mattel, the manufacturer! Of course all the fine print was kept in perfect legal order, so it couldn't be sued for fraud! So, my course of action is always to use common sense. I ask, "What is the intrinsic value of such and such things? How has the market changed over the years? What will cause an upward trend in value to continue?
I'll give you an example. Buck Knives stopped manufacturing a very popular knife called the 'Buckmaster'. It had been designed for the US Military, and Buck was contracted by the design firm to do the manufacturing. After the contract was filled, Buck continued manufacturing for consumers, until one day it stopped. Time went by, and it appeared the knife would not continue.
I purchased 10 of them, because I couldn't afford more. But I knew given the mysterious circumstances--one of Buck's top sellers suddenly discontinued without a word--this knife was destined for greatness! And, so far it has increased in sale price by 1,300%. And it isn't likely to end any time soon, because it's something many people actually want for what it is, not nostalgia, no matter how high the price!
Speakers aren't like that. They wear out just sitting there. So, my advice is hype them on eBay in the item description. But don't go overboard, because eBay has rules against unsubstantiated claims appearing in item listings. But that's only if you really abuse it.
My renovation is not so much about price gouging but saving things that might have gone to the tip, and offering good value.
If you buy a pair of Bose 901s make sure the surrounds are in good shape.
No doubt you can buy a pair of great sounding contemporary speakers, diy or otherwise.
I find some vintage speakers, (with occasional tweaks) can be acceptable/on par/ or even have superior performance compared to a lot of the rubbish pumped out by the industry these days.
So it will depend on your market segment.
Not everyone wants to drop $1k-$10k on speakers.
Hence, the appeal of vintage.
I have a pair of 1970's 3 way, non branded Australian made Loudspeakers featuring 15" Japanese Woofers.
A friend gave them to me.
I spent a total of $6 for paint, fitted polypropylene caps I rescued from a wreck, and brightened up all the connections.
Total expense $6.
I'm more than happy with their sound reproduction.
They leave my friends Klipsch RP-600M's ($1,299 over here) for dead.
The market is littered with poor quality offerings, designed for profit.
So I guess the trick is to select carefully, and to know that exclusive brand names, high retail prices, and good looks has no bearing on sound reproduction.
On the other hand, collecting is a different subject.
If you collect in order to profit with no concern for performance, then you're playing the market.
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Henry Kloss, a genius, deserves more fame. He may have given Villchur the idea of "acoustic suspension". Kept forming new companies.
At Bell Labs, late 60s, the KLH6 was the the standard speaker in our department. I guess Hal sounds most authentic when singing Bicycle Built for Two on a KLH6 (the original, not movie imitation).
B.
At Bell Labs, late 60s, the KLH6 was the the standard speaker in our department. I guess Hal sounds most authentic when singing Bicycle Built for Two on a KLH6 (the original, not movie imitation).
B.
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Back in the day, Bose used to insist that their Bose 901's could only be demonstrated in a single speaker listening room.
When we closed up the shop in 2016, I left a pair of KLH6's there for whoever did the cleanout.
They cost me nothing, they were given to me by a woman doing a house cleanout.
They were in decent shape, some bottom side scuffing, and the cloth surrounds needed re-sealing.
When you spend decades working in a repair shop, you get so immune to things being valuable.
alligatorblues' post #63 sums up what I believe is mostly due to "herd mentality' as well as hype.
Regardless of actual quality and performance specs, brand names are the "go-to" for determining selling price.
The "perceived" values are basically a human-fed and widespread rhetoric like any type of brainwashing.
The "I heard that XXXX product is valuable" is a human thing, and has little to no validity/credibility in many cases.
Word spreads, and it becomes another chapter in the "Audio Bible"
Regardless of actual quality and performance specs, brand names are the "go-to" for determining selling price.
The "perceived" values are basically a human-fed and widespread rhetoric like any type of brainwashing.
The "I heard that XXXX product is valuable" is a human thing, and has little to no validity/credibility in many cases.
Word spreads, and it becomes another chapter in the "Audio Bible"
Hi G.
I'm currently in the process of tidying up the cosmetics.
In essence, changing them from a garage speaker, to something the Mrs might accept in a lounge room environment.
Matt black baffles, matt black wood grain vinyl wrap.
Also brightened up all connection points and checked the crossovers and wiring to make sure nothing is amiss.
While dusting out the cabinet internals I found remnants of foam surround material.
I'd say for sure, either a previous owner, or their speaker guy replaced the foam with the rubber surrounds.
It would have been nice to be able to audition these speakers to the makers specs.
But with rubber, who knows what glue they used to connect the surrounds to the cones.
So I'll stay with the rubber material for now, as removing contact adhesive from original cones could most likely be destructive.
I'll definitely come back with pics and a critique on their sound.
I'll run then from my Marantz PM 6a, and Marantz CD-74 or Luxman DZ-112.
One thing, the toggle control between the speaker wire terminals is a twist affair to attenuate the tweeter.
It doesn't have stops. You can continue twisting it in each direction without a stop.
Hope this is normal, and hope whatever I set for one speaker, I can duplicate with the other.
Cliff
I'm currently in the process of tidying up the cosmetics.
In essence, changing them from a garage speaker, to something the Mrs might accept in a lounge room environment.
Matt black baffles, matt black wood grain vinyl wrap.
Also brightened up all connection points and checked the crossovers and wiring to make sure nothing is amiss.
While dusting out the cabinet internals I found remnants of foam surround material.
I'd say for sure, either a previous owner, or their speaker guy replaced the foam with the rubber surrounds.
It would have been nice to be able to audition these speakers to the makers specs.
But with rubber, who knows what glue they used to connect the surrounds to the cones.
So I'll stay with the rubber material for now, as removing contact adhesive from original cones could most likely be destructive.
I'll definitely come back with pics and a critique on their sound.
I'll run then from my Marantz PM 6a, and Marantz CD-74 or Luxman DZ-112.
One thing, the toggle control between the speaker wire terminals is a twist affair to attenuate the tweeter.
It doesn't have stops. You can continue twisting it in each direction without a stop.
Hope this is normal, and hope whatever I set for one speaker, I can duplicate with the other.
Cliff
Hi Cliff!
The word "toggle" suggests a simple on/off action as in "toggle switch".
Could the tweeter control be a rotary switch which selects different values of fixed resistor to be placed in series with the tweeter to vary its attenuation?
We could do with a clear photograph showing the tweeter control and all that is connected to it.
If "twisting" the control has the desired effect of attenuating the tweeter, then you have nothing to worry about.
Try examining the action of the attenuator on the first speaker with your ohmmeter to see how you can duplicate the setting of the control on the other speaker.
The word "toggle" suggests a simple on/off action as in "toggle switch".
Could the tweeter control be a rotary switch which selects different values of fixed resistor to be placed in series with the tweeter to vary its attenuation?
We could do with a clear photograph showing the tweeter control and all that is connected to it.
If "twisting" the control has the desired effect of attenuating the tweeter, then you have nothing to worry about.
Try examining the action of the attenuator on the first speaker with your ohmmeter to see how you can duplicate the setting of the control on the other speaker.
I described it as a toggle switch because, to me, it looks like one.
Having said that, it won't toggle & it won't press in/out.
The only thing it will do is twist with no stop in either direction.
The area directly on the inside of the switch forms part of the crossover.
CORRECTION: I wasn't firm enough when testing. It is indeed a three position toggle. All is solved. 😊
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Post a closeup picture of your switches, inside and outside.
If you have rectangular bodies inside, with 2 or 3 contacts each, and toggles outside, those are regular toggle switches, period, switching action comes from .... ummm .... "toggling" them side to side (or top to bottom)
Sometimes, depending on construction method, toggles themselves could rotate if held between thumb and forefinger , but that switches nothing, simply they are loose.
EDIT: simulpost 🙂
Definitely toggle switches, moving side to side in first picture, up-down in the second, same thing.
Notice the "fat" toggles.
Often actual acting toggle is a straight piece of hard wire, over which, for looks, a turned "barrel" (typically nickel plated brass) is slipped over, and crimped or simply friction fit.
Over the time that decorative barrel can get loose and freely turn, no big deal.
Edfit 2: notice toggle body is fatter than the hole giving access to switch insides .... how is that possible?
First a thinner but stiff wire went through that hole, from the inside, then they slipped a decorative cover over it, from the outside.
If you have rectangular bodies inside, with 2 or 3 contacts each, and toggles outside, those are regular toggle switches, period, switching action comes from .... ummm .... "toggling" them side to side (or top to bottom)
Sometimes, depending on construction method, toggles themselves could rotate if held between thumb and forefinger , but that switches nothing, simply they are loose.
EDIT: simulpost 🙂
Definitely toggle switches, moving side to side in first picture, up-down in the second, same thing.
Notice the "fat" toggles.
Often actual acting toggle is a straight piece of hard wire, over which, for looks, a turned "barrel" (typically nickel plated brass) is slipped over, and crimped or simply friction fit.
Over the time that decorative barrel can get loose and freely turn, no big deal.
Edfit 2: notice toggle body is fatter than the hole giving access to switch insides .... how is that possible?
First a thinner but stiff wire went through that hole, from the inside, then they slipped a decorative cover over it, from the outside.
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We sold 901s at Barnett Brothers in Philly in the 70s, we had tons of other speakers in the show room. I never got what people loved about them, one time I walked in the store while a sales guy was wrapping up a 901 sale and still had them playing. I thought they didn't sound right, looked at the receiver and saw he wasn't using the one with the equalizer in the tape monitor loop. Oh well, I guess the buyer liked it that way.
P.S. It's worth checking that your twisting of the toggle switch around "with no stop in either direction" has not damaged the connections to the switch or the components attached to it.
P.P.S. Did I read that you were not going to wire in new electrolytic capacitors? I certainly would.
P.P.S. Did I read that you were not going to wire in new electrolytic capacitors? I certainly would.
I've learned my lesson.
A large reason for the Advents acclaim was the crossover voicing.
Old as these components are, it all looks pretty professionally designed.
Replacing the caps could destroy their sound.
I beg to disagree. Rather than destroying the sound, replacing the capacitors with fresh electrolytics should restore the original voicing of the speakers.
You can keep the original caps and can always revert back to them if necessary.
Have you measured the capacitance and ESR of the original capacitors to see how much the values have drifted from when the electrolytics were new?
You can keep the original caps and can always revert back to them if necessary.
Have you measured the capacitance and ESR of the original capacitors to see how much the values have drifted from when the electrolytics were new?
Hi Galu.
I was of the mind to back off on cap replacement partly due to the general feel I've been getting from previous refurbs that I'm doing my money, that gains are unlikely and one poster implored me not to tamper with the voicing.
The crossover is pretty congested with parts and existing caps wires are fairly short. I'd have to either cut them out or de solder them to do correct tests.
Although fresh electrolytics would have correct ESR & capacitance, aren't they inferior voice wise compared to film?
I finished the cosmetic makeover and during the final inspection and reassembly I noticed something that I had missed.
The square magnet of one of the tweeters is split vertically into 2 pieces. Previous owner must have dropped it when they were repIacing the surrounds on the woofers. I've removed most of the crumbled pieces and moved the magnet halves into alignment with each other.
They reproduce sound but you can tell they're not performing very well.
So basically they're saved minus a tweeter. Bummer.
I haven't given up on fiddling with them to get an acceptable sound but I think the magnetic affect is diminished??
I was very happy with the sound reproduction when playing the speaker with the intact tweeter.
If ESR is down they have potential to sound even better.
Just need to overcome the tweeter issue. 🙁
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Film caps have a smaller ESR than comparable electrolytics for which you must compensate by adding series resistors if you want to emulate the original voicing of the your vintage loudspeaker.
Low ESR capacitors will make your speaker sound different, but not necessarily sound better.
By all means keep the original caps, it's your call.
However, considerations such as those above pale into insignificance when faced with a fractured tweeter magnet!