The meat industry in the US is a very big and heavy handed system, I could certainly agree with your perspective if you are indeed living over there.
But there are some major differences in how meat and other animal based produce is made if you look around a bit. making a sweeping generalization (we humans are very good at that, part of our genetically inherited "decision making effectivization" process) based on one particular produce segment in a part of the world where private companies actively fund politicians openly, does not translate to:
The entire world is like that, so all produce in that segment is evil.
Not disagreeing with you, but you mentioned choosing food based on certain certifications. Not saying there's anything wrong with that, but even if a specific organisation has very honorable goals, does not mean that every single person in that organization is 100% resistant to "creative thinking".
Food certifications are a big industry now, and a lot of the money involved go to support the organisations, which may be well and good.
But what about local produce? Have you talked to local farmers and greenhouse growers?
Knowing exactly where your food comes from, the people involved and how it's grown is the only way to know for sure if it is done in a sustainable way. And this also carries the bonus of reduces emissions footprint from transport, which is a big problem in the world today. Transporting food from a farm in Country A to Country B and C involves a huge number of loading/unloading to and from a multitude of storages/lorries/trucks/ships/trains etc. The reansport and distribution system in itself is a huge part of an enormous industrial system that nobody cares about, because they do not have to put their names anywhere.
Just a silent gigantic system that makes a lot of money without the negative PR.
The meat industry almost seems to have an additional role in the US, absorbing attention and focus, directing it away from many other things.
And the certification industry goes for the "Positive PR" points.
You mention Financial incentive, your money rules! What you buy and where you spend your money, directly influences what is available and where it comes from.
So I go the route of the Omnivore, but have decided to put great effort in knowing exactly what I eat, and that as much as possible in my daily intake come from within short distance, or a combination of distance/impact assessment, every little bit counts.
And it's the exact same thing with the emerging insect-protein industries, it is just another segment, another group to market products towards.
Maybe there is something in "you are what you eat", but that can be said and at the same time completely ignore all thought towards sustainability.
I do not separate so much between what is on the table, we need food, everyone can agree on that. But my concern is primarily: Where does it come from, what is the source of this product, which processes have been involved, and where does the money go?
If you go look at the process industry food items, fruit from other countries/other parts of the country(non-local) in the shelves at the local supermarket, the store owners do not make that much profit overall, on some products it's more than others, it evens out somewhat. I'd say the ones making money are the holding companies that have segmented away the food chain under their umbrellas, and rent out buildings and storage facilities to the brand front.
The people on top is looking for ways to make money, diversify enough to encompass as many market segments as possible, to be in control of a positive brand growth while at the same time avoid any PR for themselves.
Maybe there is something in "you are what you eat", but that can be said and at the same time completely ignore all thought towards sustainability.
I do not separate so much between what is on the table, we need food, everyone can agree on that. But my concern is primarily: Where does it come from, what is the source of this product, which processes have been involved, and where does the money go?
If you go look at the process industry food items, fruit from other countries/other parts of the country(non-local) in the shelves at the local supermarket, the store owners do not make that much profit overall, on some products it's more than others, it evens out somewhat. I'd say the ones making money are the holding companies that have segmented away the food chain under their umbrellas, and rent out buildings and storage facilities to the brand front.
The people on top is looking for ways to make money, diversify enough to encompass as many market segments as possible, to be in control of a positive brand growth while at the same time avoid any PR for themselves.
That's a false argument if you really think about it..
The permaculture part is there when feeding the animals plus the massive inefficiencies of eating meat verses humans eating plants directly.
By becoming vegan you cut that down to just one problem with the source of ones food rather than two problems.
Essentially the crux of that permaculture argument (as it often expressed by others at least) is "unless you are absolutely perfect, then don't tell me my way of living is wrong" ... which is an self centred argument about ego and which probably relates pop-psychologically to the person's childhood angst
The problem with permaculture is about the type of people who get in to that kind of business, people who see the environment as a problem that gets in the way of their profits... you can see this all the time.
The hoovering up of birds was a recent example in the UK press when olives are harvested in the Med (they use massive hoovering machines to suck the olives off the branches.. and they do it at night time for extra profit - something about flavour - which means they kill millions of resting birds every year. But like many farmers they don't give a ****..).
The best the average individual can do is make informed choices and try to lower the profits of the worst offenders or make them chase profit by at least acting with a concience in their business practice (fake it 'till you make it).
Here's an article for us to read - I'm sure we're all heavy metal fans here, right?
Devildriver's Dez Fafara: Why I Became A Vegan - Blabbermouth.net
Devildriver's Dez Fafara: Why I Became A Vegan - Blabbermouth.net
That's a false argument if you really think about it..
The permaculture part is there when feeding the animals plus the massive inefficiencies of eating meat verses humans eating plants directly.
By becoming vegan you cut that down to just one problem with the source of ones food rather than two problems.
Essentially the crux of that permaculture argument (as it often expressed by others at least) is "unless you are absolutely perfect, then don't tell me my way of living is wrong" ... which is an self centred argument about ego and which probably relates pop-psychologically to the person's childhood angst
The problem with permaculture is about the type of people who get in to that kind of business, people who see the environment as a problem that gets in the way of their profits... you can see this all the time.
Nothing you've written here about permaculture makes any sense at all. Perhaps you could look up the definition of permaculture.
Think about this for a moment. Anything that creates a large enough vacuum to suck olives off trees is going to suck an awful lot more than just olives off trees. In fact, having chopped down hundreds of olive trees, i can definitively tell you that employing a vacuum cleaner on them at any time of year will get you mostly sticks and leaves. The usual method of olive harvesting is to put a catcher underneath the tree and shake it, a time honoured method employed for millions of years.
I couldn't agree more. This recent article seems pertinent.
Patrick Holden: ‘We’re paying for cheap food with our health and our planet’ – College of Medicine
That's me Scott. Well, 90% anyway. I still have to start the vehicle and accelerate before it can take over. It's nice though, I can take a nap or catch up on paperwork while flying down the freeway.
That's what I was thinking regarding the post I quoted too..
I was using the term as I thought the person I quoted was using it - to reference what they were talking about without having to wait for them to reply and explain exactly what they were talking about. As soon as I would introduce my own words instead of "permaculture", they could then think I was talking about something different..
Language use on a forum where the chat isn't live and the people aren't there, is a balance in order to try to keep on topic.
Olives aren't grown on big, old trees... they're grown on lower-level bushes. Then if you think about this for another moment, you'll add up the cost of labour and the thousands of bushes and the delay from one row of bushes to another.... and you'll find you have to move a lot quicker than shaking them in order to get the olives when they're still at their best or face oblivion by not having enough workers or by paying massive labour bills. Hoovering is the mass olive-farming method of choice.
YouTube - showing olive harvesting
Hmm... I hope you don't make too many decisions based on just thinking about stuff. Unless one is very accurate in their knowledge of the world, you're going to make a lot of wrong assumptions and mistakes in DIY audio.
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That's why I didn't and I'm not going to respond. Permaculture is well defined and described on many levels. Veganism as defined by The Vegan Society is focused on the ethical issues and I believe this is what vegans should focus on.
If you watched the whole video, you would've noticed the vibration applied to olive trees by the tractor. Watch this portion of similar video.
Where does the person who wrote, "Haha: instead of going to the doctor next, evenharmonics, instead just stay ill and refuse all medical help - appreciate how our ancestors used to live rather than being a spoiled brat with modern healthcare" fit in?
A fascinating and mildly horrifying video, showing ecosystem destroying mono-culture at it's finest. Also showing a grape harvester being used to shake olives off trees.
I've always found ad-hominem arguments a sign to stop, so i think i will.
Ad-hominem is about attacking the person to disqualify their arguement.
I was questioning your argument.
Your proof for rejecting the idea that olives are havested using vaccuum machines was to stop and think about it.. rather than actually look into real harvesting practices.
That's how the Ancient Greeks did science - they didnt bother with experimenting or checking theories, they simply assumed their theories were correct becuase they'd sat and thought about it for a while.
Yep, it shakes them so they come loose and sucks them into the hooper behind. It's the same machine I'm talking about. It's called suction harvesting.
I dont understand your last paragraph - fit in where? Doesn't make sense.
Anyway, here's an article on it:
Millions of birds vacuumed to death annually in Mediterranean - BirdGuides
I suspect the olive growers don't want dead birds mixed with the olives. Seems they would want to minimize the problem also.
So reasonable questions would be how much olive harvesting land is actually done this way, what percentage of live birds don't flee the machines and are there also already dead birds in the dead birds/area count.
The count given may actually be raised a bit by the dead bird count.
So reasonable questions would be how much olive harvesting land is actually done this way, what percentage of live birds don't flee the machines and are there also already dead birds in the dead birds/area count.
The count given may actually be raised a bit by the dead bird count.
Never mind.
Does the report make you suspect something? Hmm..., lets see, the birds were sleeping in those olive trees at night and when the tractor approaches with vibration and engine noise, they continue to sleep and then get caught in the harvester chamber?
Wow, those birds are heavier sleeper than I am! Cats are nocturnal animals. Those heavy sleeper birds would have gone extinct already.
I believe it has, vegans are people too, some still like the taste of meat but for many the associations render it disgusting to them.
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