elp_gr said:
Dear Sir,
Thank you very much for your very kind and valuable addition.
You have answered perfectly to my question.
So it seems that this upsampling to DSD has a positive effect.
I think I will end buying the new DVP9000S.
Thank you greatly.
Kind regards,
beppe61
Italy
I'm glad I helped, even with my woefully limited knowledge and understanding of audio.
Please note that you might have to experiment with the two different upsampling modes and the option of turning the upsampling off completely. I've noticed that some recordings (the majority of the ones in my collection) benefit from the upsampling, while some others don't. Personally, I've stuck with the DSD mode and left it there out of sheer laziness.
Although the 9000 is certainly not the final word in CD/SACD playback (we must always remember it's a DVD/SACD player priced below 500 euros), it's a worthy unit.
If we believe the guy behind effectiveaudiomod.com (who claims to have been involved in this unit's development, although I can neither confirm nor refuse this), the new 2500 and 1500 universal players from Yamaha are nothing but improved Philips 900/9000's.
Please note that you might have to experiment with the two different upsampling modes and the option of turning the upsampling off completely. I've noticed that some recordings (the majority of the ones in my collection) benefit from the upsampling, while some others don't. Personally, I've stuck with the DSD mode and left it there out of sheer laziness.
Although the 9000 is certainly not the final word in CD/SACD playback (we must always remember it's a DVD/SACD player priced below 500 euros), it's a worthy unit.
If we believe the guy behind effectiveaudiomod.com (who claims to have been involved in this unit's development, although I can neither confirm nor refuse this), the new 2500 and 1500 universal players from Yamaha are nothing but improved Philips 900/9000's.
I found a review of the DVP9000...
And here's a photo of its inside:
And here's the link to the review:
http://www.videohifi.com/16_DVP9000S-eng.htm
EDIT - COMMENTS:
I'm keeping some distance from the reviewer, though.
For instance, he mentions he did the listening tests without mains filters, because "they are not widespread devices yet". Funny. I run my set-up through a good APC filter and I also have a few other filters at my home; besides, they're not expensive. The APC cost me 25 euros, the others cost me about 3 euros each.
I do have problems with the copy protected sound-carrying medium that is fradulently called "CD" by the recording industry. To be more specific now.
I have five copy-protected discs in my collection:
1. Mike Oldfield's "Tubular Bells 2003" (WEA)
2. Julie London's "Love Letters/Feeling Good" (EMI)
3. Jon Lord's "Beyond The Notes" (EMI)
4. Fatme's (they were a good Greek rock band) "Taxidi" (translated as "Journey") on Minos/EMI
5. Sarah Brightman's "Harem" (Angel)
On the 963, I was getting pops and clicks with #2 and #3 in the above list. With the 9000, the sound is intermittent. Of course, I'm having none of this. Determined to listen to what I paid for, I bypassed the lock, ripped the audio information from these discs on to my computer and then burned it on a CD-R. If this is called piracy, then call me a pirate.
Also, the reviewer speaks of "added information" when talking about the upsampling. Like I said, you can't make anything out of thin air. You can't add information that's not there to begin with. But you can interpret it in a better-sounding way.
Also, I'm not sure whether the 9000 would have given any 1.5K euro CD player or a dedicated (audio only) SACD player a run for its money, but it's an honest player.
And here's a photo of its inside:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
And here's the link to the review:
http://www.videohifi.com/16_DVP9000S-eng.htm
EDIT - COMMENTS:
I'm keeping some distance from the reviewer, though.
For instance, he mentions he did the listening tests without mains filters, because "they are not widespread devices yet". Funny. I run my set-up through a good APC filter and I also have a few other filters at my home; besides, they're not expensive. The APC cost me 25 euros, the others cost me about 3 euros each.
I do have problems with the copy protected sound-carrying medium that is fradulently called "CD" by the recording industry. To be more specific now.
I have five copy-protected discs in my collection:
1. Mike Oldfield's "Tubular Bells 2003" (WEA)
2. Julie London's "Love Letters/Feeling Good" (EMI)
3. Jon Lord's "Beyond The Notes" (EMI)
4. Fatme's (they were a good Greek rock band) "Taxidi" (translated as "Journey") on Minos/EMI
5. Sarah Brightman's "Harem" (Angel)
On the 963, I was getting pops and clicks with #2 and #3 in the above list. With the 9000, the sound is intermittent. Of course, I'm having none of this. Determined to listen to what I paid for, I bypassed the lock, ripped the audio information from these discs on to my computer and then burned it on a CD-R. If this is called piracy, then call me a pirate.
Also, the reviewer speaks of "added information" when talking about the upsampling. Like I said, you can't make anything out of thin air. You can't add information that's not there to begin with. But you can interpret it in a better-sounding way.
Also, I'm not sure whether the 9000 would have given any 1.5K euro CD player or a dedicated (audio only) SACD player a run for its money, but it's an honest player.
From what I've known and experienced, all audio equipment seems to improve its performance after it's had its burn-in period (this varies from unit to unit).
According to the people of dCS (one of the most prestigious makers of DACs and CD players), the upsampling does not add coloration or information; it merely reveals information that wouldn't otherwise be audible. I have found an article that compares upsampling to oversampling - and I hope it hasn't been posted before. If it has, I apologize.
Here's the link:
http://www.aslgroup.com/dcs/upandover.htm
According to the people of dCS (one of the most prestigious makers of DACs and CD players), the upsampling does not add coloration or information; it merely reveals information that wouldn't otherwise be audible. I have found an article that compares upsampling to oversampling - and I hope it hasn't been posted before. If it has, I apologize.
Here's the link:
http://www.aslgroup.com/dcs/upandover.htm
I prefer to listen with my own ears... And my ears tell me that upsampling does help a good number of recordings.
elp_gr said:
Dear Sir,
thank you very much again for your kind and very valuable reply.
Knowing your point of view and experiences has been very important to me in my decision process.
Kind regards,
beppe61
AD8620 output upgrade
I have changed output OPAMP in 963SA from AD8032 to AD8620. I also have changed +/- 8V to linear power supply.
It improves a lot, bass has more impact and cleaner, high freq. sound become more solid and distinct, sound stage is very beautiful and layered, mid is also sweet, dynamic also improves a lot.
It gives more high end sound with tight and more powerful bass.
I have changed output OPAMP in 963SA from AD8032 to AD8620. I also have changed +/- 8V to linear power supply.
It improves a lot, bass has more impact and cleaner, high freq. sound become more solid and distinct, sound stage is very beautiful and layered, mid is also sweet, dynamic also improves a lot.
It gives more high end sound with tight and more powerful bass.
Linear Power Supply
Hi Sugarn,
Good to hear you did the linear PSU. Can you please enlighten me how you connected it? I indend to do the same, but my first attempt failed, I fried my AV board!!!
I'm planning to connect it to the AV board, here's my plan:
* removed resistor 3659 (isolated the AV regulators from the SMPS)
* removed caps 2612 and 2613
* connect the +8VA to the positive lead of (the now removed) cap 2613
* connect the ground to the negative lead of (the now removed) cap 2613
* removed bridge 4604 to isolate the -8VA to the opamps
* connect the -8VA to the negative lead of cap 2445
Is this correct?
Thanks for your reply,
Saffier
Hi Sugarn,
Good to hear you did the linear PSU. Can you please enlighten me how you connected it? I indend to do the same, but my first attempt failed, I fried my AV board!!!
I'm planning to connect it to the AV board, here's my plan:
* removed resistor 3659 (isolated the AV regulators from the SMPS)
* removed caps 2612 and 2613
* connect the +8VA to the positive lead of (the now removed) cap 2613
* connect the ground to the negative lead of (the now removed) cap 2613
* removed bridge 4604 to isolate the -8VA to the opamps
* connect the -8VA to the negative lead of cap 2445
Is this correct?
Thanks for your reply,
Saffier
Install linear PSU
Hi Saffier,
How to install linear PSU.
1. Remove jumper #4604
Jumper #4604 is tiny and is next to the negative side of cap #2619 on the top of the AV board. When you remove this, you isolate the -8VA line for the op amps. The original -8V regulator is still used for various digital pulldowns.
2. Remove jumper #4606
Jumper #4606 is also tiny and is on the bottom of the board ~1 cm from resistor #3659 (which is ~ under cap#2612) in the direction towards part #7502 . This will isolate the +8V op amp supply. You can check with a DVM that you have the right ones.
I did not remove caps #2612 and #2613. These caps are needed to bypass power supply noise to ground. I also did not remove resistor #3659, regulator #7601 and #7602 at this time because it's still needed for digital circuit power supply.
You should check +8v supply on OPAMP AD8032 pin 8 and -8V on pin 4 to make sure that it’s now isolate from regulator #7601 (+8V) and #7602 (-8V).
To make sure that you’ve done correctly you can turn power on and check voltage at pin 8 and pin 4 of OPAMP 8032, it must have 0 volt.
3. Prepare linear regulated PSU and adjust to +8 and -8 volt. You must not connect to 963SA mainboard at this time, but first check voltage output of the new PSU to make sure that it has +8V and -8V before connect it to the mainboard of 963SA. Check positive output and negative output voltage terminal on new PSU with its own ground, not to mainboard ground because we still don’t connect to 963SA mainboard at this time.
4. Connect +8V regulated from new linear PSU to pin 8 of OPAMP 8022 which is at bottom of the mainboard.
5. Connect -8V regulated from new linear PSU to pin 4 of OPAMP 8022 which is at bottom of the mainboard.
6. Connect ground from new linear PSU to mainboard ground. You can connect to any ground point on the mainboard. I connected to + of caps #2619. You must make sure that you connect to mainboard ground, not to + voltage supply rail.
7. Turn power on and check voltage at pin 8 and pin 4 of OPAMP AD8032.
That’s it well done. I’ve successfully installed linear PSU at first try, no any problems.
To further improve digital circuit power supply, I have removed resistor #3659 and connect +12v DC unregulated from new linear PSU to + of caps #2612.
Hi Saffier,
How to install linear PSU.
1. Remove jumper #4604
Jumper #4604 is tiny and is next to the negative side of cap #2619 on the top of the AV board. When you remove this, you isolate the -8VA line for the op amps. The original -8V regulator is still used for various digital pulldowns.
2. Remove jumper #4606
Jumper #4606 is also tiny and is on the bottom of the board ~1 cm from resistor #3659 (which is ~ under cap#2612) in the direction towards part #7502 . This will isolate the +8V op amp supply. You can check with a DVM that you have the right ones.
I did not remove caps #2612 and #2613. These caps are needed to bypass power supply noise to ground. I also did not remove resistor #3659, regulator #7601 and #7602 at this time because it's still needed for digital circuit power supply.
You should check +8v supply on OPAMP AD8032 pin 8 and -8V on pin 4 to make sure that it’s now isolate from regulator #7601 (+8V) and #7602 (-8V).
To make sure that you’ve done correctly you can turn power on and check voltage at pin 8 and pin 4 of OPAMP 8032, it must have 0 volt.
3. Prepare linear regulated PSU and adjust to +8 and -8 volt. You must not connect to 963SA mainboard at this time, but first check voltage output of the new PSU to make sure that it has +8V and -8V before connect it to the mainboard of 963SA. Check positive output and negative output voltage terminal on new PSU with its own ground, not to mainboard ground because we still don’t connect to 963SA mainboard at this time.
4. Connect +8V regulated from new linear PSU to pin 8 of OPAMP 8022 which is at bottom of the mainboard.
5. Connect -8V regulated from new linear PSU to pin 4 of OPAMP 8022 which is at bottom of the mainboard.
6. Connect ground from new linear PSU to mainboard ground. You can connect to any ground point on the mainboard. I connected to + of caps #2619. You must make sure that you connect to mainboard ground, not to + voltage supply rail.
7. Turn power on and check voltage at pin 8 and pin 4 of OPAMP AD8032.
That’s it well done. I’ve successfully installed linear PSU at first try, no any problems.
To further improve digital circuit power supply, I have removed resistor #3659 and connect +12v DC unregulated from new linear PSU to + of caps #2612.
Re: Install linear PSU
Thanks Sugarn for your quick answer. Just one question for you about the +8V /-8V connection to the AD8022. Do I need to connect it only on leg 4 and 8 of the first opamp (7403) or do I need to connect it to both opamps (7403 and 7404)?
I'v build a battery power supply, fully automatic which will switch the power supply on when the 963SA awakes out of standby.
I was also thinking of injecting +12V out of the same battery PSU.
This will probably be my second route.
Thanks,
Saffier
sugarn said:
Thanks Sugarn for your quick answer. Just one question for you about the +8V /-8V connection to the AD8022. Do I need to connect it only on leg 4 and 8 of the first opamp (7403) or do I need to connect it to both opamps (7403 and 7404)?
I'v build a battery power supply, fully automatic which will switch the power supply on when the 963SA awakes out of standby.
I was also thinking of injecting +12V out of the same battery PSU.
This will probably be my second route.
Thanks,
Saffier
Hi Safier,
You must connect only one +8V, one -8V from linear PSU to only one AD8022, you can choose which OPAMP you want to. Since +8v and -8v power supply rail on the mainboard is already connected to both AD8022 and AD8032.
The sound improves a lot when I changed AD8032 to AD8620.
AD8620 is a real audiophile OPAMP, you should try it.
You must connect only one +8V, one -8V from linear PSU to only one AD8022, you can choose which OPAMP you want to. Since +8v and -8v power supply rail on the mainboard is already connected to both AD8022 and AD8032.
The sound improves a lot when I changed AD8032 to AD8620.
AD8620 is a real audiophile OPAMP, you should try it.
Opamp
Thanks Sugarn,
OK, should be no problem to connect it to whichever AD8022.
I was wondering what would be the benefit to connect the +8/-8V if you also connect the new linear +12V supply, because the +8/-8V comes from this +12V supply, The only benefit I can think of that the supplies are seperate and not interfering.
I already replaced the AD8032 opamp with the AD8066. Which is also great, however I didn't try the AD8620.
Saffier
Thanks Sugarn,
OK, should be no problem to connect it to whichever AD8022.
I was wondering what would be the benefit to connect the +8/-8V if you also connect the new linear +12V supply, because the +8/-8V comes from this +12V supply, The only benefit I can think of that the supplies are seperate and not interfering.
I already replaced the AD8032 opamp with the AD8066. Which is also great, however I didn't try the AD8620.
Saffier
PSU
Since we remove jumper #4604,#4606 analog power supply is seperate from digital power supply. New linear PSU will feed analog circuit. Regulator #7601,#7602 will feed digital circuit.
The benefit is digital power supply noises will not interfere with analog circuit.
Since we remove jumper #4604,#4606 analog power supply is seperate from digital power supply. New linear PSU will feed analog circuit. Regulator #7601,#7602 will feed digital circuit.
The benefit is digital power supply noises will not interfere with analog circuit.
I'm bringing the issue of vibration and noise from the transport up again. When I had the 963, a number of my CDs played with a lot of vibrations and tons of mechanical noise coming from the transport (which, in turn, transmitted these vibrations to the entire chassis and enclosure). The DVP-9000S seems to suffer from the same disease. So far, two CDs I have (Pavlov's Dog "Pampered Menial" and Tangerine Dream's "Rubycon") play with vibrations and noise. Tangerine Dream's CD stops causing these vibrations after about 10 minutes of play, but with "Pampered Menial", it just won't stop. I thought about purchasing Ringmat's Statmat, but then found out it's not what I need. I also thought about isolation feet and spikes, but the problem is internal. I don't think it's feasible for me to open up the transport (it's a DVD-ROM drive), because I really wouldn't know what to do with what. Any ideas?
Hi,
If you're having problems with specific disks instead of general problems with all disks then perhaps these disks are poorly made and are unbalanced causing vibrations at high speed. I assume they are SACD and not DVDs so do you have another machine (CD player) that you can play them in to see if there is any difference. As I said in an earlier post the mechanism may be spinning the disk at a high speed in order to get the data of faster to give the decoder more time to process it.
You could try balancing the disks (very crudely) by adding a very small amount of mass to the top side of the disk. Try a small piece of whatever you decide to use and see if the vibration gets better or worse, if it gets worse move it to the other side of the disk (180 degrees away) and it should get better. If there is no change then try moving it round the disk by 90 degrees and test again. Eventually by much trial and error you will be able to determine where and how much weight to add to balance the disk. If you want to get a bit more technical then attach something that produces a focused beam of light or a pen or pencil to the top of the mechanism (on a point that doesn't rotate!) and point/touch it at a piece of white card or something like that - the beam or the nib of the pen/pencil will move around the card as the mechanism vibrates. The wider the pattern the more it is vibrating! This will allow you to compare the effect of the additional mass on the vibration more accurately than listening to it.
Alternatively you could decouple the mechanism from the chassis so that the vibration is not transmitted or add mass to the mechanism (non moving bits!) to make it harder for it to vibrate. You might be unlucky and the vibration of the disk is exciting the mechanism at its resonant frequency - adding mass to the mechanism will also alter the resonant frequency reducing the effect.
Regards,
Jon
If you're having problems with specific disks instead of general problems with all disks then perhaps these disks are poorly made and are unbalanced causing vibrations at high speed. I assume they are SACD and not DVDs so do you have another machine (CD player) that you can play them in to see if there is any difference. As I said in an earlier post the mechanism may be spinning the disk at a high speed in order to get the data of faster to give the decoder more time to process it.
You could try balancing the disks (very crudely) by adding a very small amount of mass to the top side of the disk. Try a small piece of whatever you decide to use and see if the vibration gets better or worse, if it gets worse move it to the other side of the disk (180 degrees away) and it should get better. If there is no change then try moving it round the disk by 90 degrees and test again. Eventually by much trial and error you will be able to determine where and how much weight to add to balance the disk. If you want to get a bit more technical then attach something that produces a focused beam of light or a pen or pencil to the top of the mechanism (on a point that doesn't rotate!) and point/touch it at a piece of white card or something like that - the beam or the nib of the pen/pencil will move around the card as the mechanism vibrates. The wider the pattern the more it is vibrating! This will allow you to compare the effect of the additional mass on the vibration more accurately than listening to it.
Alternatively you could decouple the mechanism from the chassis so that the vibration is not transmitted or add mass to the mechanism (non moving bits!) to make it harder for it to vibrate. You might be unlucky and the vibration of the disk is exciting the mechanism at its resonant frequency - adding mass to the mechanism will also alter the resonant frequency reducing the effect.
Regards,
Jon
They're regular CDs. I'm looking at both decoupling the transport from the chassis and at adding mass.
Here's the deal, though:
Let's say I try to decouple the transport from the chassis, perhaps by adding rubber spacers where it screws on to the chassis. Am I not going to lose clarity and bass? In that case, maybe I'm better off just adding as much mass as possible and perhaps also waiting for some firmware upgrade that will provide better servo control of the transport?
Here's the deal, though:
Let's say I try to decouple the transport from the chassis, perhaps by adding rubber spacers where it screws on to the chassis. Am I not going to lose clarity and bass? In that case, maybe I'm better off just adding as much mass as possible and perhaps also waiting for some firmware upgrade that will provide better servo control of the transport?
>Let's say I try to decouple the transport from the chassis, perhaps by adding rubber spacers where it screws on to the chassis. Am I not going to lose clarity and bass?
I'm curious, why do you think that decoupling the mechanism from the chassis will result in a loss of clarity and bass ?
I can't see that decoupling the mechanism from the chassis and adding mass to it would have any negative effects.
Instead of mounting the mechanism with compliant mounts you could also try minimising the contact area and mount it on three needle points or suspend it.
I'm curious, why do you think that decoupling the mechanism from the chassis will result in a loss of clarity and bass ?
I can't see that decoupling the mechanism from the chassis and adding mass to it would have any negative effects.
Instead of mounting the mechanism with compliant mounts you could also try minimising the contact area and mount it on three needle points or suspend it.