richie00boy said:
Hi Rich,
Thanks and I turned down Germany after things got somewhat complicated. Money isn't much good if your not confident you'll be happy with the decision too.
I did look at that idea and came up with some wide baffle but shallow depth wall mount enclosures. I dropped that idea in favor of this one.
XLS sub was finished but had a very short stay. I sold the drivers at around the time I anticipated the job move. Sadly I also sold most of my DIY stuff at the same time. So I'm now back in the position of clean slate with everything to do again. I quite like the idea of that though.
Not sure what I want to be honest. I don't think I'm going to bother with all the gloss paint work this time around because this will be sat right under the projection screen and light would reflect like crazy.
More likely this time will be matte black for the main enclosure body with the paneling in either solid timber with a subtle wax finish or if I can't source any large timber sheets then it'll be sprayed MDF again in silver but with a satin finish. Personally I prefer the idea of the solid wood as it always looks well against matte black.
All speaker drivers using diaphragms of this type have a common problem, it the natural fibration modes. These mode are usuallu excited by large transients such as piano. The Manger does try to damp these out by using the star shaped material, but there is a tradeoff between goo damping an goo transients. I'm sure if you measure the phase response of these, the data will be quite evident. It's pretty hard to explain the physics without motion simulation graphically. If you have drums beating loud and some other complicate material playing at the same time, the the sound will be a little harsh.
soongsc said:
You are of course talking about IMD. A good test would be a high SPL two tone burst at say 500hz and another at 15Khz then take a look at the products. I'm not convinced what your saying is actually what I'm hearing and trying to describe, the driver does sound very good on certain tracks, particularly those with lots of transients such as percussion. If what your getting it is a major factor I think it would be a characteristic of the driver rather than just a problem that occasionally pop up on certain tracks. More likely is a dipole-room interaction.
Here's the data that Manger provided:
Step:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Impulse:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Frequency:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Phase:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Impedance:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
CSD:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Power response:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Distortion(fundamental, 2nd and 3rd harmonics):
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
BTW I trust these as one thing that came across when dealing with the folks at Manger was that nothing was too much trouble and they were always honest to the degree that they even openly discuss the problems with the driver.
I haven't taken my own measurements yet but will post them once I have reliable data.
I have ony listened to the Mangers in the 301 model if I remember correctly. But looking at the data, it seems the region between 1K and 2K would be of significance, that's where the resonance is, otherwise it looks good. the impedance plot shows some resonances below 1K and above Fo, this might cause some coloration, but it still should be good. I think higer sound levels at the lower frequencies are going to be limiting it since the same Xmax will not be as capable as cone drivers.
Bear in mind that natural modes only cause problems when they are excited. If the music content does not present the right excitation, then the modes will not be audible. I once tried a super tweeter crossing it at 3K, it was great until I hear that single note on the piano that made the sound break up; it only happend at larger volume setting and at that specific note. It wasn't even noticable though normal measurement.
All drivers have their limitations. If I do get to listen to the Manger "swing" model, I'll probably get a better feeling what you are hearing. Lot's of things cannot be decribed properly in words. Last week I had the opportunity to visit another speaker designer, he was always trying to get me to point out where I though improvements could be made, I actaully had to go through a few CDs and point out a specific passage on a track that more distinctively presented the problem area. Other people also do the same to my design. Once someone does that, the juicy part is figuring out a solution.
Bear in mind that natural modes only cause problems when they are excited. If the music content does not present the right excitation, then the modes will not be audible. I once tried a super tweeter crossing it at 3K, it was great until I hear that single note on the piano that made the sound break up; it only happend at larger volume setting and at that specific note. It wasn't even noticable though normal measurement.
All drivers have their limitations. If I do get to listen to the Manger "swing" model, I'll probably get a better feeling what you are hearing. Lot's of things cannot be decribed properly in words. Last week I had the opportunity to visit another speaker designer, he was always trying to get me to point out where I though improvements could be made, I actaully had to go through a few CDs and point out a specific passage on a track that more distinctively presented the problem area. Other people also do the same to my design. Once someone does that, the juicy part is figuring out a solution.
ShinOBIWAN said:
That's true and it would seem you have more than enough money already anyway 😉 Glad to see you are staying put, I'll have to pop over around xmas time, if that's ok 🙂
ShinOBIWAN said:
I've been thinking about shallow wide enclosures, possibly wall mount myself.
ShinOBIWAN said:
So have you sold all your tools and saw etc? 🙁
ShinOBIWAN said:
Should look good. I'm trying to do more with real or at least veneered woods.
soongsc said:
Could well be right. I'd like to have a little more play time with the driver including measurements and loading before coming to any hard conclusions.
For now I'll say its an annoying colouration that when at its worst makes the Manger sound a little crude.
richie00boy said:
Sure Rich, pop up. Would be good to share experiences. If you do manage it then you'll have to bring round some of your kit. It'd be rude not to. 🙂
Discrete is the new black of late. There's something that just looks off with a five big loudspeakers stuck in a room yet the same room with some in-wall's and a wholly more discrete setup really is more impressive IMO. The trick is to get it sounding as good as the big floorstanders.
Never! The tool aren't DIY surplus that is the DIY. I've got everything setup just how I like and I'm used to all intricacies and faults of my stuff - like setting the bench saw about 1mm over to get the cut spot on etc. I hate swapping to a new bit of hardware unless its really something life changing like a like a 5-axis CNC router! 😀
Same here. I think natural wood often looks more beautiful than any spray finish.
I just remebered that there is a recording and playback method called the 2+2+2, if I remeber correctly it has been added to the DVD Audio specs, this would require two additiona front speakers on the top. See this site:
http://www.222sound.info/
Basically the center and sub are switched out using a total of 6 speakers to reproduce 3D sound image (like the way GPS works). Theoretically one only needs 4 speakers to create full 3D, but such arrangement would be awkward in actual implementation.
http://www.222sound.info/
Basically the center and sub are switched out using a total of 6 speakers to reproduce 3D sound image (like the way GPS works). Theoretically one only needs 4 speakers to create full 3D, but such arrangement would be awkward in actual implementation.
ShinOBIWAN
Congratulation for purchasing MANGER drivers! From what I read here you have exactly the same ears as I have.
Now as you know the degree of directivity the MSW has, you will certainly rethink your home theatre project and place Manger closer to the ear hight.
For me no traditional 2-way speaker is coherent enough. Yes Manger has a little problems with higher directivity and distortion and maybe colouration which may be audible mainly in extreme situations, but it makes wonderful images of reality.
I listen to music in small 5x4 m room from the distance of 2m and for this event I run MSW fullrange and add subwoofer sometimes.
It is not absolutely mandatory to use highend bass driver with MSW, but I prefer stiff metal woofers before everythink else.
Congratulation for purchasing MANGER drivers! From what I read here you have exactly the same ears as I have.
Now as you know the degree of directivity the MSW has, you will certainly rethink your home theatre project and place Manger closer to the ear hight.
For me no traditional 2-way speaker is coherent enough. Yes Manger has a little problems with higher directivity and distortion and maybe colouration which may be audible mainly in extreme situations, but it makes wonderful images of reality.
I listen to music in small 5x4 m room from the distance of 2m and for this event I run MSW fullrange and add subwoofer sometimes.
It is not absolutely mandatory to use highend bass driver with MSW, but I prefer stiff metal woofers before everythink else.
jirka said:
I'll agree with that.
I'm at a point where this project may or may not happen. The Manger looks to be an awful lot of hard work to get it sounding really good so I've cancelled the order for the other Mangers. TBH I overall prefer the KEF Reference 201's I'm using and I've just invested in a Reference 202c center channel. Its the easy way out I guess but the performance isn't a million miles away from what I've become accustom to and I'm not sure the Manger setup would satisfy in all area's, afterall imaging and soundstage aren't everything.
I'll have to consider it somemore but certainly for now I'm going back to commercial land to enjoy what that has to offer.
Interesting juncture. Like you I bought a pair of Kef Uni-Q floorstanders a while ago as a bit of a reference for DIY designs. I ended up buying the rest of the set to get the 5 channel setup.
Trouble is, and I suspect this may also be your problem, that they are just fairly boring boxes and I have the itch to make something to my own style, just 'because I can' and for the satisfaction of something great DIY.
Trouble is, and I suspect this may also be your problem, that they are just fairly boring boxes and I have the itch to make something to my own style, just 'because I can' and for the satisfaction of something great DIY.
Which did you end up going for? The Ref 203 and 205 were tempting. I suspect you went for the best value for money one which would be the 203. FWIW the 201 which I'm using at the moment are a standmount design.
I also had the Kef Q series before, Removed the stock pssive XO and used an active XO. By doing so, I have also added my signature to the sound!
richie00boy said:
Ah the Q series. I'm not being a snob or owt like that but they're vastly inferior to the latest reference series but then again so they should be considering the price difference.
I've always loved to bash commercial junk and always though most models over priced. However I do think these KEF's aren't what I'd call particularly far behind the Perceive v2. There treble in particular on the KEF's really is A1 stuff. Its just that the mids seem a little laid back in comparison. Still the best £2k standmount I've heard yet though.
They're freakin ugly though:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Do you know what I love the most though? The fact is I could listen to them within 30minutes of unpacking rather than endless knobing around for months and months. What a breath of fresh air that was.
Yeah I know the Reference are a world apart. The Q are good for the money though. I'm still able to use them as a reference, as you can pick out whatever your comparing with does better, as well as worse. For speakers anyway.
Hopefully I might have an (my design) amp I can bring round to demo for you 🙂 I'll have to see about a sub, the weight and transportability is not ideal when I'll already have a loaded up car. Plus it may well be a one I have to look after exceptionally well cosmetically.
Hopefully I might have an (my design) amp I can bring round to demo for you 🙂 I'll have to see about a sub, the weight and transportability is not ideal when I'll already have a loaded up car. Plus it may well be a one I have to look after exceptionally well cosmetically.
You should have a look at the artcoustic DF multi (new and old model), it is much like your design.
I have seen some of their speakers - they are very nice looking and suit a modern decor superbly.
I have seen some of their speakers - they are very nice looking and suit a modern decor superbly.
cph2000 said:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I wouldn't touch that with yours mate 😀
Horzontal tweeter and mid/bass arrangements are pure filth.
I'm not suggesting that you copy the driver arrangement!
The Manger or a coaxial looks like the way to go.
The Manger or a coaxial looks like the way to go.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.