Thanks, Freddi. You've been working with the Karlsons for many years and it's been about that long that I've followed some of your posts and want to try one. Someday! Thanks for sharing all the great info on Karlson.
I was also looking at the GRS/BOFU in a "Half Chang" enclosure. Sounds like this "horn'ish" enclosure is just within my max dimensions.
I'm also keeping in mind sretens idea. It just bothers me the lack of midbass and also those drivers are only rated to 7000hz on the top end. I can probably design a bandpass subwoofer around a $10 woofer for midbass. Not sure what to do about the highs though. And if this needs serious EQ then that could bring problems since there is no way to active EQ.
I was also looking at the GRS/BOFU in a "Half Chang" enclosure. Sounds like this "horn'ish" enclosure is just within my max dimensions.
I'm also keeping in mind sretens idea. It just bothers me the lack of midbass and also those drivers are only rated to 7000hz on the top end. I can probably design a bandpass subwoofer around a $10 woofer for midbass. Not sure what to do about the highs though. And if this needs serious EQ then that could bring problems since there is no way to active EQ.
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if you get up to ~"K10" size then there could be some midbass - in a 1955K12 with a BetsyK i could reach near club levels without exceeding xmax - Visaton's B20 is much like a BetsyK - might not be as clean (? - have not A-B-ed them) - the tinsel leads on BetsyK rattled out of their eyelets after a few minutes - excursion was low. The original BOFU was not a powerful driver and its surround would rot out after 5 years or so in my area - just good for cheap. The clone must be weaker qes-wise (A Delta10A in "K10" size will play loud) - -are there reliable T-S for the GRS-BOFU?
There's a K-coupler we called the "SK8" with clear plans drawn by Greg B. that's a bit larger than a K8 and smaller than a 10. 3 apertures were tried with Tangband/Fostex, Nirvana - might have run an original BOFU - "K10" size might be better with a weak driver.
Fast taper aperture - starts at 0.5" width - ends at 12" width
x w
0 0.50
1 0.78
2 1.10
3 1.43
4 1.76
5 2.11
6 2.46
7 2.81
8 3.17
9 3.54
10 3.91
11 4.30
12 4.72
13 5.18
14 5.73
15 6.43
16 7.38
17 8.72
18 10.69
18.5 12.00
**************
Here's a Pioneer B20/BOFU in a "K10" size enclosure (Karlson's sizes for Ultra-Fidelity ranged from 8" to 12" to 15" to 18") - a Goldwood 1142 piezo in a 1.5" pvc pipe will make a cheap tweeter and run w/o crossover if needed
There's a K-coupler we called the "SK8" with clear plans drawn by Greg B. that's a bit larger than a K8 and smaller than a 10. 3 apertures were tried with Tangband/Fostex, Nirvana - might have run an original BOFU - "K10" size might be better with a weak driver.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Fast taper aperture - starts at 0.5" width - ends at 12" width
x w
0 0.50
1 0.78
2 1.10
3 1.43
4 1.76
5 2.11
6 2.46
7 2.81
8 3.17
9 3.54
10 3.91
11 4.30
12 4.72
13 5.18
14 5.73
15 6.43
16 7.38
17 8.72
18 10.69
18.5 12.00
**************
Here's a Pioneer B20/BOFU in a "K10" size enclosure (Karlson's sizes for Ultra-Fidelity ranged from 8" to 12" to 15" to 18") - a Goldwood 1142 piezo in a 1.5" pvc pipe will make a cheap tweeter and run w/o crossover if needed
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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I think I've been able to find dimensions/plans for every Karlson EXCEPT for the K10.
Do you know the external width, Freddi?
12" like mentioned above or is that just the internal width?
Do you know the external width, Freddi?
12" like mentioned above or is that just the internal width?
Here is what reviewer of the GRS on PartsExpress.com said.
BUT, we don't know if the measurements were taken before, or after break-in.
since there was no official K10, those were made at 15" wide by 13" deep by 20.5" high - use 30 degree baffle - 10 degree port panel - that gave around 1 cubic foot rear and around 1/2 cubic foot front.
hey - here's something I've never seen -= a Karlsonator 8 build. I don't have facebook - - if someone can contact the builder - them them they should sound move lively if the aperture is cut to the top with a narrow inverted "V" de-Q-ing slit.
Karlsonator 8 with Viston BG20
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.645456515500837.1073741837.601735219872967&type=3
extended aperture on a K18 - if I cover the upper 6 inches or so, the sound loss "speed" and oddly - some highs - latter would be expected with an internally mounted K-tube. This 18" coupler sounded good with two different Eminence 18s and lively with the EVM18B which had only ~70g moving mass
hey - here's something I've never seen -= a Karlsonator 8 build. I don't have facebook - - if someone can contact the builder - them them they should sound move lively if the aperture is cut to the top with a narrow inverted "V" de-Q-ing slit.
Karlsonator 8 with Viston BG20
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.645456515500837.1073741837.601735219872967&type=3
extended aperture on a K18 - if I cover the upper 6 inches or so, the sound loss "speed" and oddly - some highs - latter would be expected with an internally mounted K-tube. This 18" coupler sounded good with two different Eminence 18s and lively with the EVM18B which had only ~70g moving mass
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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I let him know Freddi.
Sounds like the SK8 has different dimensions but similar volumes as the faux K10?
I may end up going with the $15 GRS in the K10. To me, it's just the sexiest idea since I've always wanted to hear a Karlson.
But the eight 4" drivers tower + 6.5" in a bandpass is still at the top of my list as well. Unfortunately though, that poly 6.5" closeout driver is now out of stock. 🙁
Also kind of hoping that if I build something they really like, that they will let me build a second. Who knows.
Sounds like the SK8 has different dimensions but similar volumes as the faux K10?
I may end up going with the $15 GRS in the K10. To me, it's just the sexiest idea since I've always wanted to hear a Karlson.
But the eight 4" drivers tower + 6.5" in a bandpass is still at the top of my list as well. Unfortunately though, that poly 6.5" closeout driver is now out of stock. 🙁
Also kind of hoping that if I build something they really like, that they will let me build a second. Who knows.
really big thanks! - if i could find my camera's cable then would show the size difference between a "K10" and the SK8 project. SK8 prototype is 20.5x13.5 x 12.75 - -I was wrong on my K10 its 22"x15"x12.75" deep. I think you could scale down K15 to about that size, delete the front shelf, then muck with tuning by varying the vent area. The front shelf works well at K15 size - could be deleted there but the cavity depth has to change to avoid a hole in the response. K15's features although appearing weird, are functional.
Hi,
Anything that uses 8 drivers for $10 you should be very
wary of the quality of the drivers, they are dirt cheap.
At $10 a side I'd be making the cabinets out of painted
box cardboard or something else cheap and cheerful.
This is the cheap amplifier :
Lepai LP-2020A+ Tripath Class-T Hi-Fi Audio Amp w/Power Supp | 310-300
http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/289-133s.pdf
Make of the above specification what you will, its very cheap driver.
Very different on paper is the cheap :
JAMO 30466/30462 2-1/2" x 4" Shielded Speaker | 299-919
And its hard to reconcile the similar Qts, lower Fs, much higher Vas
along with a much lower sensitivity. Nevertheless in may be a much
better column speaker, but the right information is simply not given.
The difference in specified Vas, 0.23cuft against 0.03cuft is very troublesome,
out of wack, and makes no sense at all, given the Jamo's lower sensitivity.
No way do 8 of the Jamo's need at least 2cuft. 0.023cuft makes a lot
more sense, given the parameters, and I suspect that that is the case.
YMMV but on the cheap IMO you need cheap columns. They will be poor
because they are dirt cheap. But optimised (if that's what you want to
call it) for the job they will do better than any other dirt cheap option.
The fact the amplifier is low power in a sense allows it, otherwise
it is a waste of time and the budget will need serious revision.
rgds, sreten.
Normally I'd completely ignore such low budget posts, but as I'm
very interested in bang for buck, here its interesting to see if the
OP goes for severe "hifi" limitations to optimise the required job,
at the severe budget limitations, or builds something very useless.
rgds, sreten.
Anything that uses 8 drivers for $10 you should be very
wary of the quality of the drivers, they are dirt cheap.
At $10 a side I'd be making the cabinets out of painted
box cardboard or something else cheap and cheerful.
This is the cheap amplifier :
Lepai LP-2020A+ Tripath Class-T Hi-Fi Audio Amp w/Power Supp | 310-300
http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/289-133s.pdf
Make of the above specification what you will, its very cheap driver.
Very different on paper is the cheap :
JAMO 30466/30462 2-1/2" x 4" Shielded Speaker | 299-919
And its hard to reconcile the similar Qts, lower Fs, much higher Vas
along with a much lower sensitivity. Nevertheless in may be a much
better column speaker, but the right information is simply not given.
The difference in specified Vas, 0.23cuft against 0.03cuft is very troublesome,
out of wack, and makes no sense at all, given the Jamo's lower sensitivity.
No way do 8 of the Jamo's need at least 2cuft. 0.023cuft makes a lot
more sense, given the parameters, and I suspect that that is the case.
YMMV but on the cheap IMO you need cheap columns. They will be poor
because they are dirt cheap. But optimised (if that's what you want to
call it) for the job they will do better than any other dirt cheap option.
The fact the amplifier is low power in a sense allows it, otherwise
it is a waste of time and the budget will need serious revision.
rgds, sreten.
Normally I'd completely ignore such low budget posts, but as I'm
very interested in bang for buck, here its interesting to see if the
OP goes for severe "hifi" limitations to optimise the required job,
at the severe budget limitations, or builds something very useless.
rgds, sreten.
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Because of the higher Qts, the GRS is probably going to work better in a Karlsonator 8 than a (semi) traditional Karlson SK8. For maximum horizontal dispersion, I would also be inclined to continue the slot all the way to the top.
Any of the K types are essentially slot loaded, and will have much better horizontal dispersion than a direct radiator. Being bandpass, they typically have reduced cone motion and thus higher SPL capability as well, but still there's no replacement for displacement.
Sreten makes some good points concerning the requirements of PA systems. People tend to underestimate how much SPL is required. Bars full of soft clothed people soak up sound like a sponge. Additionally, they have a tendency to talk loudly and raise the ambient noise floor... It's a different challenge than even a very large living room in a home setting.
Any of the K types are essentially slot loaded, and will have much better horizontal dispersion than a direct radiator. Being bandpass, they typically have reduced cone motion and thus higher SPL capability as well, but still there's no replacement for displacement.
Sreten makes some good points concerning the requirements of PA systems. People tend to underestimate how much SPL is required. Bars full of soft clothed people soak up sound like a sponge. Additionally, they have a tendency to talk loudly and raise the ambient noise floor... It's a different challenge than even a very large living room in a home setting.
on the cheap that little 1/2" coil Stetron driver has a nice data sheet - 8 per column - make it mainly foamboard so it can occupy other threads http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/289-133s.pdf
Thanks for the links & other info. I'll check it out!
The cabinet wood is free since it's coming out of my leftover wood all over my garage.
So the $40 (plus shipping) budget can be split any way, as long as it includes drivers & amplifier power.
All the little things & wood will come out of my garage bin. 🙂
My goal is probably something like 80hz to 12khz +/- ~5db. If I go the PA route it sounds like I may need to re-think the bottom end of my goal.
Thanks for the info!
Another idea if going the line array route - sometimes cheap FR drivers do very well in simple open ended TL pipes, and it can extend the bottom end a bit. Too bad the old 'whamodyne' drivers are extinct. A friend of mine made a very nice sounding omni TL using 16 of them. It would be nice to find something that can get to 80 Hz without a sub. Is there some other closeout driver that might be available dirt cheap?
I'm probably underestimating how much midbass 32 straight inches of 1mm xmax 4" drivers can produce.
The price is right.
The off-axis is right.
The highs & lows are the only thing scaring me off.
Greg, I could probably find a number of folks on TechTalk or DIYaudio who might be willing to sell their stowed away cache of small full range drivers.
The price is right.
The off-axis is right.
The highs & lows are the only thing scaring me off.
Greg, I could probably find a number of folks on TechTalk or DIYaudio who might be willing to sell their stowed away cache of small full range drivers.
Hahah.
Just realized that at some point I need to consider protecting the drivers from errant darts.
The Karlson will be super easy as I can use chicken wire across the face.
A line array may be a bit trickier.
Dart tips are about 1" at the most. And tapered.
Just realized that at some point I need to consider protecting the drivers from errant darts.
The Karlson will be super easy as I can use chicken wire across the face.
A line array may be a bit trickier.
Dart tips are about 1" at the most. And tapered.
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Hi guys, figured I'd join the brainstorm.
How much width/depth do you have between dart machines ?
My vote is for the 10" Infinity woofers and a pair of the cheap Mylar semi-dome tweets here : Speaker Stuff , or a pair of piezo's. PE has them for about $1 ea on sale.
You're looking at $27 worth of drivers. A 10" and a tweet, run the 10" fullrange and roll the tweet in with a small cap . Put it in an aperiodic or sealed cab. Simple, big surface area, woofer is rated at 91db 1w/1m and will work good for music too.
Cheap, fairly efficient, lots of output/surface area , simple.
Just remember, there's no replacement for displacement, and never forget KISS.
Just my $0.02.
...........................Blake
How much width/depth do you have between dart machines ?
My vote is for the 10" Infinity woofers and a pair of the cheap Mylar semi-dome tweets here : Speaker Stuff , or a pair of piezo's. PE has them for about $1 ea on sale.
You're looking at $27 worth of drivers. A 10" and a tweet, run the 10" fullrange and roll the tweet in with a small cap . Put it in an aperiodic or sealed cab. Simple, big surface area, woofer is rated at 91db 1w/1m and will work good for music too.
Cheap, fairly efficient, lots of output/surface area , simple.
Just remember, there's no replacement for displacement, and never forget KISS.
Just my $0.02.
...........................Blake
Hi,
Dense wire mesh will stop darts, typical hifi stuff may hard to find.
Your right in that a say 36" line of 8 4" drivers will do a cylindrical
wave wavefront above about 300Hz. Consequently response
drops off 3dB per doubling of distance instead of the usual 6dB.
Tell me about it and my 2ft ribbon speakers with an 8" bass unit.
FWIW at the right distance they were great. Further away they
were awful for background music, extremely intrusive when
chatting, but that is exactly what you want for a PA.
If the penny hasn't dropped yet once you build a line array /
column any frequency specification is pretty meaningless.
The bass will drop off at 6dB per doubling distance.
The mid treble will drop off at 3dB per doubling distance.
As stated earlier there is no real point attempting bass
from column cabinets, it simply does not work, and
that is why column drivers don't even try to do bass.
rgds, sreten.
Dense wire mesh will stop darts, typical hifi stuff may hard to find.
Your right in that a say 36" line of 8 4" drivers will do a cylindrical
wave wavefront above about 300Hz. Consequently response
drops off 3dB per doubling of distance instead of the usual 6dB.
Tell me about it and my 2ft ribbon speakers with an 8" bass unit.
FWIW at the right distance they were great. Further away they
were awful for background music, extremely intrusive when
chatting, but that is exactly what you want for a PA.
If the penny hasn't dropped yet once you build a line array /
column any frequency specification is pretty meaningless.
The bass will drop off at 6dB per doubling distance.
The mid treble will drop off at 3dB per doubling distance.
As stated earlier there is no real point attempting bass
from column cabinets, it simply does not work, and
that is why column drivers don't even try to do bass.
rgds, sreten.
Hi, Really ? you've read and understand the other posts ?, rgds, sreten.
If not it is not brainstorming, its just your opinion versus a concensus.
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Or think about something like this
581017 1 Magnavox Becker 10" Free Air Woofers 1977 Console Stereo Pulls | eBay
2 10" Woofers Replacement Style | eBay
.........................Blake
581017 1 Magnavox Becker 10" Free Air Woofers 1977 Console Stereo Pulls | eBay
2 10" Woofers Replacement Style | eBay
.........................Blake
Yep. It's in a bar , no ? A line array of a few cheap 2x3" or 4" fullrange drivers ain't gonna cut it. You'd never even hear them over the ambient noise. They'd be maxed out just trying to play any kind of vocals.
A pair of cabinets with paper cone 10"s/tweeters placed between #1&2 dartboards and #4&5 dart boards would work great. Plus they would help the rest of the system out when they were jamming tunes.
Did you read my post ? Basically it said efficiency & displacement can't be beat. Cheapest way to do it that I can see is with a 10" 2 way. Plus you get the added benefit of wider bandwidth and it is more suitable for music.
By placing the speakers in the location I suggested you would have plenty of dispersion to cover that area.
..........................Blake
A pair of cabinets with paper cone 10"s/tweeters placed between #1&2 dartboards and #4&5 dart boards would work great. Plus they would help the rest of the system out when they were jamming tunes.
Did you read my post ? Basically it said efficiency & displacement can't be beat. Cheapest way to do it that I can see is with a 10" 2 way. Plus you get the added benefit of wider bandwidth and it is more suitable for music.
By placing the speakers in the location I suggested you would have plenty of dispersion to cover that area.
..........................Blake
I understand the distance/spl advantage that a line array offers. That said, CZ Eddie said that it is only meant to project 15' or so.
JAMO 30466/30462 2-1/2" x 4" Shielded Speaker | 299-919
The Jamo driver you linked to is a terrible choice for voice/vocals IMO. It has a Qts:2.38 and Fs:191hz. That's gonna put a BIG peak right in the lower vocal range, making for a very chesty sound. Beyond that the drivers are rated at 83db and only .5mm Xmax. How much output are you gonna get ? Even if you did four in a line array your only looking at 86db or so with VERY limited Xmax/output.
A sealed/aperiodic 10" run fullrange with a helper tweet will be much more capable in a bar scenario. Especially if you use a highish efficency driver.
Granted, this is IMO , based on what I know. I just don't see how using very cheap, very small, limited bandwidth drivers is gonna get the job done.
I guess there is more than one way to skin a cat.
..........................Blake
JAMO 30466/30462 2-1/2" x 4" Shielded Speaker | 299-919
The Jamo driver you linked to is a terrible choice for voice/vocals IMO. It has a Qts:2.38 and Fs:191hz. That's gonna put a BIG peak right in the lower vocal range, making for a very chesty sound. Beyond that the drivers are rated at 83db and only .5mm Xmax. How much output are you gonna get ? Even if you did four in a line array your only looking at 86db or so with VERY limited Xmax/output.
A sealed/aperiodic 10" run fullrange with a helper tweet will be much more capable in a bar scenario. Especially if you use a highish efficency driver.
Granted, this is IMO , based on what I know. I just don't see how using very cheap, very small, limited bandwidth drivers is gonna get the job done.
I guess there is more than one way to skin a cat.
..........................Blake
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